CIA Vietnam war controlled USAF aircraft missions

bingo you are spot on see it has happened...everyhting you said below
reminds me of the story the guy told me, he said i rember now INS was
set but thats all that was needed...

Smartace11 wrote:

Those Vark pilots would have a heck of a time operating the weapons panel on
the right.

How about the Phantom pilot operating the *rear seat* equipment?
In 1972, I flew night triple turn missions out of Tahkli - one sortie out of
Tahkli in Laos, N and S Vietnam recover at Danang, reload/rearm, do it again,
recover at Danang and do it again then go home. Occaisionally we recovered at
Udorn because it was closer than Danang when we were operating in nothern Laos
around the PDJ.

I saw an black F-4s once at Udorn taxi past the dearm area when I recovered
there one night. Couldn't tell how many crew members. Maybe not black but one
dark color all over - the camo paint scheme was visible at night in that
scenario once you got some night vision and had the fuselage belly lights on
for the weapoins guys to pin you back up. The F-4 could be operated by one
crewmember - the INS just had to be aligned before taxi. Dropping nukes was
about the only thing that supposedly couldn't be done alone though I guess one
could enable the PAL stuff on the ground before TO.

There were also rumors floating around of the existance of the black F-4s but
few had actually seen them. Never heard anything about F-111s though the
F-111As out of Nellis that replaced us could have flown that mission.

When we worked at night in Laos we were usually under the control of a Nightowl
FAC, an F-4 Fast FAC with Loran and plenty of flares. Once in a while we
worked with a Raven but I have no idea what type of aircraft, their usual O-1
or something else. Sometimes a Specter on the trails would control us. Very
few times, Moonbeam the ABCCC ship wold turn us over to the Combat Skyspot guys
to drop from their ground radar.

Working in Laos at night was spooky. Like flying inside an ink bottle as there
was just a campfire here and there and few if any other lights on the ground.
Little or no horizon under the haze. The FAC would lay down a "log" that
burned on the ground for a while and we would attempt to use it as an aiming
point. Hard enough to gage "100 meters north of my smoke" in the daytime but a
real trick at night.

Definitely enjoyed night flying as there was little or no adult supervision
around. Plus it was a helluva lot cooler. Doubtless, the missions were in
support of the Lima recon sites there and possibly the BMT TACAN though it had
been overrun when I was there..

Steve

Aerophotos wrote:

I have on good source from a knowledgeable aviation enthusiast, info
that in the late stages of the Vietnam war for some operations the CIA
controlled a limited amount of USAF assets, eg F-4 Phantoms and F-111s
Adavarks for attacks in Laos and Cambodia.

Dad said he flew the A-1E in cloak and dagger sorties into Laos
coordinated by the CIA, Air America, SEALS, Green Beanies etc.
Those sorties weren't logged and he has significantly more combat
hours than what's shown in his USAF pilot records.

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
news
Aerophotos wrote:

I have on good source from a knowledgeable aviation enthusiast, info
that in the late stages of the Vietnam war for some operations the CIA
controlled a limited amount of USAF assets, eg F-4 Phantoms and F-111s
Adavarks for attacks in Laos and Cambodia.

Dad said he flew the A-1E in cloak and dagger sorties into Laos
coordinated by the CIA, Air America, SEALS, Green Beanies etc.
Those sorties weren't logged and he has significantly more combat
hours than what's shown in his USAF pilot records.

That is not uncommon for those times. What the original poster is missing
is that CIA was paired with personal from the militay.

Aerophotos wrote:

I have on good source from a knowledgeable aviation enthusiast, info
that in the late stages of the Vietnam war for some operations the CIA
controlled a limited amount of USAF assets, eg F-4 Phantoms and F-111s
Adavarks for attacks in Laos and Cambodia.

These aircrafts were painted overall black for night operations and
operated by only a pilot, no wso, due to CIA mission rules.

1. No WSO: Physically impossible in an F-111 (any model), and even more so
in an F-4. Google "F-111" and check the cockpit layout.

2. I was stationed at Takhli 10/72 to 4/73. While I was there, there were
_NO_ overall black F-111s there at the time. Most operations were night
missions, so the paint scheme would have been appropriate for that use
(jungle green mix, going to black on the bottom, IIRC). We had painted our
ALQ-87 jammer pods black so they wouldn't wouldn't stand out.

The overall grey/black paint scheme came in much later.

3. I doubt the CIA had 'control' of any military aircraft. They did have
their own resources ('Air America', mainly based in northern Thailand), but
not for the kind of missions you're describing. They may have requested
missions through the NCA, but that would require documentary proof.

The aircraft would depart their bases early in morning/late evenings and
no radio chatter was observed.

Radio silence would be common for operational security. A squadron
commander at the time described the silence as 'deafening' when Korat TACAN
finally faded out.

What was so sensitive in Laos and Cambodia that would require them there?

Political fallout. Laos and Cambodia were officially neutral at the time,
but tolerated the flow of men and materials through their countries via the
Ho Chi Mihn Trail.

Let's use Occam's Razor here. The enemy is using the Ho Chi Mihn trail to
resupply their forces, the Nixon administration wants to get out while
giving the South Vietnamese a fighting chance, so they order missions into
neutral territory to disrupt that resupply.

George

/------------------------------------------------------------\
| George Ruch |
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?" |
\------------------------------------------------------------/

1. No WSO: Physically impossible in an F-111 (any model), and even more so
in an F-4. Google "F-111" and check the cockpit layout.

There was nothing in the F-4 that would prevent it from being flown without
someone in the rear cockpit. The only necessary system there is the Inertial
Nav and that can be ser up on the ground with power connected. Radar wold be
inop and no contro lover jammers but not needed in an area like Laos.

(Smartace11) wrote:

1. No WSO: Physically impossible in an F-111 (any model), and even more so
in an F-4. Google "F-111" and check the cockpit layout.

There was nothing in the F-4 that would prevent it from being flown without
someone in the rear cockpit. The only necessary system there is the Inertial
Nav and that can be ser up on the ground with power connected. Radar wold be
inop and no contro lover jammers but not needed in an area like Laos.

I stand corrected. I was thinking that a conventional strike mission would
need radar, jammers and a WSO to run them.

Another correction. I have seen local incentive flights with various
versions of the F-111 (once INS is aligned), but again, the typical deep
strike mission absolutely needed a full-time WSO to manage the nav/attack
functions. The AC had his hands full flying the airplane and making sure
the auto-TF did its job.

/------------------------------------------------------------\
| George Ruch |
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?" |
\------------------------------------------------------------/

Subject: CIA Vietnam war controlled USAF aircraft missions
From: George Ruch
Date: 2/29/2004 12:05 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Aerophotos wrote:

I have on good source from a knowledgeable aviation enthusiast, info
that in the late stages of the Vietnam war for some operations the CIA
controlled a limited amount of USAF assets, eg F-4 Phantoms and F-111s
Adavarks for attacks in Laos and Cambodia.

/\/\ Snip /\/\

What was so sensitive in Laos and Cambodia that would require them there?

Political fallout. Laos and Cambodia were officially neutral at the time,
but tolerated the flow of men and materials through their countries via the
Ho Chi Mihn Trail.

Let's use Occam's Razor here. The enemy is using the Ho Chi Mihn trail to
resupply their forces, the Nixon administration wants to get out while
giving the South Vietnamese a fighting chance, so they order missions into
neutral territory to disrupt that resupply.

George

I flew aboard an airborne command post over there (mid 68 to end of 69) and
have more time over Laos than either Thailand or Vietnam.

While CIA had a presence, Air America, nothing like the original poster claims
ever took place.

There were some black-painted aircraft though. O-2 Forward Air Controllers
(FAC) who worked at night directing airstrikes, but not many of them. For the
most part, the air war went into "standby" mode at night because our abilities
to operate in the dark were limited to gunships, B-57s and A-26s which operated
over the Trail. The gunships and the A-26s had black lower surfaces.

The only other black aircraft I know of was an H-3 helicopter that inserted
ground teams into Laos (I knew/know the pilot).


Ed

"There are no easy answers, but there are simple answers.
We must have the courage to do what we know is morally
right." --Ronald Reagan



(Delete text after dot com for e-mail reply.)

(RobbelothE) wrote:

Subject: CIA Vietnam war controlled USAF aircraft missions
From: George Ruch
Date: 2/29/2004 12:05 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Aerophotos wrote:

I have on good source from a knowledgeable aviation enthusiast, info
that in the late stages of the Vietnam war for some operations the CIA
controlled a limited amount of USAF assets, eg F-4 Phantoms and F-111s
Adavarks for attacks in Laos and Cambodia.

/\/\ Snip /\/\

What was so sensitive in Laos and Cambodia that would require them there?

Political fallout. Laos and Cambodia were officially neutral at the time,
but tolerated the flow of men and materials through their countries via the
Ho Chi Mihn Trail.

Let's use Occam's Razor here.

[snip]

I flew aboard an airborne command post over there (mid 68 to end of 69) and
have more time over Laos than either Thailand or Vietnam.

While CIA had a presence, Air America, nothing like the original poster claims
ever took place.

I expected as much.

There were some black-painted aircraft though. O-2 Forward Air Controllers
(FAC) who worked at night directing airstrikes, but not many of them.

[snip]

And my memory may have been playing tricks on me. Hell, it's been 30+
years... I don't know if I'm mixing up memories with the later LO gray SAC
FB-111s, but some of the A/C at Takhli may have gone to a gray/black night
low observable paint scheme.

Thanks for the info, Ed.

/------------------------------------------------------------\
| George Ruch |
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?" |
\------------------------------------------------------------/

I flew aboard an airborne command post over there (mid 68 to end of 69) and
have more time over Laos than either Thailand or Vietnam.

While CIA had a presence, Air America, nothing like the original poster
claims
ever took place.

I expected as much.


The poster said later stages of the war. His information source was there in
1972. Different war under Nixon, maybe!

"Smartace11" wrote in message
...
I flew aboard an airborne command post over there (mid 68 to end of 69)
and
have more time over Laos than either Thailand or Vietnam.

While CIA had a presence, Air America, nothing like the original poster
claims
ever took place.

I expected as much.


The poster said later stages of the war. His information source was there
in
1972. Different war under Nixon, maybe!

The original poster (Aerophotos, AKA Jolly Green Giant) has demonstrated
little credibility; this latest flight of fantasy he has engaged in is just
another example of that.

Brooks