Glider Winch Manufacturers or Plans to make???

On Jul 13, 2:33*pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
The skylaunch is a cosmetic update of the 1960's US Gerhlein winches and
suffers from the same major shortcomings. *If you still like it, save $50k -
$75k by spending a couple of thousand for an old Gerhlein and fix it up.

If you'd like a modern, state of the art winch, take a look at these from US
winch buiders:

http://www.romansdesign.com/
andhttp://www.hydrowinch.com

Bill Daniels

Some serious crack smoking been going on there :-)

Skylaunches are quite superb winches. They're very well made and give
smooth, powerful, and repeatable launches. A pleasure to fly on and
drive.


Dam

"Dan G" wrote in message
...
On Jul 13, 2:33 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
The skylaunch is a cosmetic update of the 1960's US Gerhlein winches and
suffers from the same major shortcomings. If you still like it, save
$50k -
$75k by spending a couple of thousand for an old Gerhlein and fix it up.

If you'd like a modern, state of the art winch, take a look at these from
US
winch buiders:

http://www.romansdesign.com/
andhttp://www.hydrowinch.com

Bill Daniels

Some serious crack smoking been going on there :-)

Skylaunches are quite superb winches. They're very well made and give
smooth, powerful, and repeatable launches. A pleasure to fly on and
drive.


Dam

It that's true, then so are all the 50 year old Gerhleins since they're the
same at the core except for the additional drum. You can find Gerhleins
everywhere in the US - usually rusting away in the weeds.

Bill D

Bill Daniels wrote:
"Dan G" wrote in message
...
On Jul 13, 2:33 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
The skylaunch is a cosmetic update of the 1960's US Gerhlein winches and
suffers from the same major shortcomings. If you still like it, save
$50k -
$75k by spending a couple of thousand for an old Gerhlein and fix it up.

If you'd like a modern, state of the art winch, take a look at these from
US
winch buiders:

http://www.romansdesign.com/
andhttp://www.hydrowinch.com

Bill Daniels

Some serious crack smoking been going on there :-)

Skylaunches are quite superb winches. They're very well made and give
smooth, powerful, and repeatable launches. A pleasure to fly on and
drive.


Dam

It that's true, then so are all the 50 year old Gerhleins since they're the
same at the core except for the additional drum. You can find Gerhleins
everywhere in the US - usually rusting away in the weeds.

And, indeed, if you pull one out of the weeds, disassemble it, sandblast
and repaint the frame (assuming it hasn't rusted out), replace or
rebuild the engine, transmission, differential, drum, cable (synthetic
rope is much safer), seat, enclosure, wheels, tires, rollers, and
guillotine (the existing one will do a better job of cutting off
someones arm than cutting Spectra), then you have something roughly
equivalent to a single drum Skylaunch, but lacking the rather clever
mechanical throttle control system that makes them easier to drive.

Or, if you value your time at more than $5/hour, you can simply buy a
Skylaunch at some level of completion and finish it off with locally
sourced components. Of course, this is all assuming that what is
important to you is launching gliders to a reasonable height at a
reasonable cost, rather than exploring the limits of technology...

Marc

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:
"Dan G" wrote in message
...
On Jul 13, 2:33 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
The skylaunch is a cosmetic update of the 1960's US Gerhlein winches and
suffers from the same major shortcomings. If you still like it, save
$50k -
$75k by spending a couple of thousand for an old Gerhlein and fix it up.

If you'd like a modern, state of the art winch, take a look at these
from US
winch buiders:

http://www.romansdesign.com/
andhttp://www.hydrowinch.com

Bill Daniels

Some serious crack smoking been going on there :-)

Skylaunches are quite superb winches. They're very well made and give
smooth, powerful, and repeatable launches. A pleasure to fly on and
drive.


Dam

It that's true, then so are all the 50 year old Gerhleins since they're
the same at the core except for the additional drum. You can find
Gerhleins everywhere in the US - usually rusting away in the weeds.

And, indeed, if you pull one out of the weeds, disassemble it, sandblast
and repaint the frame (assuming it hasn't rusted out), replace or rebuild
the engine, transmission, differential, drum, cable (synthetic rope is
much safer), seat, enclosure, wheels, tires, rollers, and guillotine (the
existing one will do a better job of cutting off someones arm than cutting
Spectra), then you have something roughly equivalent to a single drum
Skylaunch, but lacking the rather clever mechanical throttle control
system that makes them easier to drive.

Or, if you value your time at more than $5/hour, you can simply buy a
Skylaunch at some level of completion and finish it off with locally
sourced components. Of course, this is all assuming that what is
important to you is launching gliders to a reasonable height at a
reasonable cost, rather than exploring the limits of technology...

Marc


That's an exageration. Most of them are in better shape than that. The
engine will probably run with fluid changes and a new battery. Old
transmissions seem to last forever. They've been put back in operation for
a couple of thousand dollars and a few weekends work

That 'clever' Skylaunch spring loaded throttle stop can be made for about
$30 worth of parts from a hardware store.

The real question is, why spend serious money for 50 year old technology
that didn't work all that well in the first place.

Bill D

On Jul 13, 5:35*pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message

...





Bill Daniels wrote:
"Dan G" wrote in message
...
On Jul 13, 2:33 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
The skylaunch is a cosmetic update of the 1960's US Gerhlein winches and
suffers from the same major shortcomings. If you still like it, save
$50k -
$75k by spending a couple of thousand for an old Gerhlein and fix it up.

If you'd like a modern, state of the art winch, take a look at these
from US
winch buiders:

http://www.romansdesign.com/
andhttp://www.hydrowinch.com

Bill Daniels

Some serious crack smoking been going on there :-)

Skylaunches are quite superb winches. They're very well made and give
smooth, powerful, and repeatable launches. A pleasure to fly on and
drive.

Dam

It that's true, then so are all the 50 year old Gerhleins since they're
the same at the core except for the additional drum. *You can find
Gerhleins everywhere in the US - usually rusting away in the weeds.

And, indeed, if you pull one out of the weeds, disassemble it, sandblast
and repaint the frame (assuming it hasn't rusted out), replace or rebuild
the engine, transmission, differential, drum, cable (synthetic rope is
much safer), seat, enclosure, wheels, tires, rollers, and guillotine (the
existing one will do a better job of cutting off someones arm than cutting
Spectra), then you have something roughly equivalent to a single drum
Skylaunch, but lacking the rather clever mechanical throttle control
system that makes them easier to drive.

Or, if you value your time at more than $5/hour, you can simply buy a
Skylaunch at some level of completion and finish it off with locally
sourced components. *Of course, this is all assuming that what is
important to you is launching gliders to a reasonable height at a
reasonable cost, rather than exploring the limits of technology...

Marc

That's an exageration. *Most of them are in better shape than that. *The
engine will probably run with fluid changes and a new battery. *Old
transmissions seem to last forever. *They've been put back in operation for
a couple of thousand dollars and a few weekends work

That 'clever' Skylaunch spring loaded throttle stop can be made for about
$30 worth of parts from a hardware store.

The real question is, why spend serious money for 50 year old technology
that didn't work all that well in the first place.

Bill D- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Do they NOT launch gliders reasonably well? What's the ballpark cost
of a 'current technology' winch? Will it launch more gliders for less
money over a 5 year period making 75 launches per weekend?

Bill Daniels wrote:
"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:
It that's true, then so are all the 50 year old Gerhleins since they're
the same at the core except for the additional drum. You can find
Gerhleins everywhere in the US - usually rusting away in the weeds.

And, indeed, if you pull one out of the weeds, disassemble it, sandblast
and repaint the frame (assuming it hasn't rusted out), replace or rebuild
the engine, transmission, differential, drum, cable (synthetic rope is
much safer), seat, enclosure, wheels, tires, rollers, and guillotine (the
existing one will do a better job of cutting off someones arm than cutting
Spectra), then you have something roughly equivalent to a single drum
Skylaunch, but lacking the rather clever mechanical throttle control
system that makes them easier to drive.

Or, if you value your time at more than $5/hour, you can simply buy a
Skylaunch at some level of completion and finish it off with locally
sourced components. Of course, this is all assuming that what is
important to you is launching gliders to a reasonable height at a
reasonable cost, rather than exploring the limits of technology...

Marc


That's an exageration. Most of them are in better shape than that. The
engine will probably run with fluid changes and a new battery. Old
transmissions seem to last forever. They've been put back in operation for
a couple of thousand dollars and a few weekends work

It's not an exaggeration in the case of the two I've pulled out of the
weeds, then decided to return to their resting places. There are a
number of Gerhleins floating around in good shape, but that is because
people have been using them and upgrading parts over time. It's not
that easy to find good ones that aren't being used at this point.

That 'clever' Skylaunch spring loaded throttle stop can be made for about
$30 worth of parts from a hardware store.

It's slightly more complicated than a simple spring loaded throttle
stop, as the mechanism also allows for a separate wind input, but I
agree, $30 is about right, though you're on your own when it comes to
calibration. I've yet to see such a mechanism fitted to a Gehrlein,
which is rather unfortunate, as it clearly allows greater consistency in
launches, particularly with inexperienced drivers.

The real question is, why spend serious money for 50 year old technology
that didn't work all that well in the first place.

You know perfectly well why these winches can work better than the state
of the art from 50 years ago. A decently sized engine and functioning
transmission, with an appropriate final drive ratio. Multi-strand cable
or Spectra, so there isn't a cable break every few flights. Gliders
with CG hooks, rather than compromise hooks like most 2-33s. Properly
trained pilots and drivers, etc.

State of the art technology is great, but the cost is even higher than a
Skylaunch, the manufacturers just starting out, the field experience is
limited, and I personally would prefer to leave the beta testing to others.

Marc

About the only similarity between a Skylaunch winch and a Gerhlein is that
they both use V8 gasoline engines with an automatic gearbox. The Skylaunch
has benefitted from 40 years of development, is well designed and properly
engineered, and is built to be heavy enough that it cannot be pulled into
the air or toppled over by heavy modern GRP two seater training gliders,
unlike the little Gerhlein.

Bill Daniels' argument is like saying that the latest Ford automobiles
are no better than a 1920's Model T because they share the same basic
components!

In Europe Skylaunch winches are considered to be state of the art, and a
well proven design. They are often bought by clubs in preference to the
stepless diesel-hydraulic and electric winches favoured by Bill. The
latter are in theory better, but are considerably more expensive and
don't work any better in practice. Economics and proven reliability do
come into the argument as to which design to choose!

The current manufacturers of glider winches are Skylaunch (UK), Tost
(Germany), MEL (Holland), Hydrostart (Holland), Herkules (Czech Republic),
Electrowinch (Germany), Egger (Germany), Integrale (Germany), Supacat (UK),
plus the two US designs described below which (as far as I am aware) are
both still under development. A quick 'google' should find you all the
relevant web sites.

Derek Copeland


At 13:33 13 July 2008, Bill Daniels wrote:
The skylaunch is a cosmetic update of the 1960's US Gerhlein winches and

suffers from the same major shortcomings. If you still like it, save
$50k
-
$75k by spending a couple of thousand for an old Gerhlein and fix it up.

If you'd like a modern, state of the art winch, take a look at these
from
US
winch buiders:

http://www.romansdesign.com/
and
http://www.hydrowinch.com

Bill Daniels

At 20:16 on 13 Jul '08, jpq wrote :-

I'm getting confused about the Bills and Teds, but I am
anticipating an excellent adventure! (Nice wisecrack jpq!)


Yes jpq! I opologise for getting my 'Teds' and 'Bills' mixed up! Ted
was of course the 'Original Post' and 'Bill' was the contributor that
I was seeking futher explanation from!

I have never met Derek Copland (previous 14th July post) but he is someone
I know of that has vast experience and is a 'legend in his own lunchtime'
in British gliding circles! I would put much faith in his observations,
which also appear to back-up my own!

Regarding the capital cost and running costs of a professionally built
winch :-

a) Skylaunch estimate that running on LPG the cost/launch using the 8.2
litre engine option is £0.10 maximum.

b) During the 6 months summer period my club operates the 'Skylaunch
8200' 7 days/week plus some evenings, and during the winter 3 days/week.
With allowances for weather I would make a rough estimate at up to 5,000
winch launches/year!

If we write off the capital cost over a period of say 10 years this works
worked out to very roughly a cost of £1.10/launch (including LPG fuel!)
and the 'Skylaunch' still has many good years remaining on a "marginal
costing costing basis" of £0.10/launch + some 'Maintenance Costs'!

Hey! I've just realised! Why has the 'Club Treasurer' been charging me
£6.00/launch! I shall ask him!

Raising the 'Capital Cost' apart! (I leave that up to the Treasurer!)
Would I really want the 'aggro' of self-building our own winch at these
cost/launch figures? That is of course a subjective decision that can only
be made by a specific individual or club! However, I know what my decision
would be!


Tony Clark (aka 'pilot extraordinaire')


PS. I still await detailed clarification regarding the Skylaunch
"shortcomings" with much anticipation!

On 14 Jul, 00:48, Marc Ramsey wrote:

Or, if you value your time at more than $5/hour, you can simply buy a
Skylaunch at some level of completion and finish it off with locally
sourced components.

I thought Skylaunch - being sensible people - would sell neither
winches nor plans in the US. Product liability and all that.

Ian

On 14 Jul, 01:35, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:

The real question is, why spend serious money for 50 year old technology
that didn't work all that well in the first place.

Bill,

I really think you need to explain yourself here. Skylaunch winches
have a very high reputation here, and if you are going to accuse them
of poor design you should be prepared to back up the accusations with
(a) details and (b) evidence.

Ian