russian jet pilots in korean war?

Raymond Chuang wrote:

"ville terminale" wrote in message
om...


of course they are nonsense. an american pilot was probably 5 times
as good as the best russian pilot.


The Russian pilots acquited themselves well flying the MiG-15 in combat over
Korea but the fact they couldn't communicate in Russian and the problem of
the MiG-15 suffering from yaw instability problems above Mach 0.87 limited
the success of the plane. Indeed, a couple of Russian pilots tried to
outdive the F-86 but the MiG-15 ended up breaking up in the air instead.

The US forces were in Korea as a part of the United nations peace
keeping forces defending South Korea.
Why were there Russian pilots flying for North Korea?
Why was Russia, still a member of the UN, clandestinely fighting
against the UN?

--
Rostyk

The US forces were in Korea as a part of the United nations peace
keeping forces defending South Korea.
Why were there Russian pilots flying for North Korea?
Why was Russia, still a member of the UN, clandestinely fighting
against the UN?

--
Rostyk

Because according to North Korean and Soviet history, it was they who were
defending DRPK against those evil South Korea, US, and UN invaders, who started
the war by first invading North Korea

It is that same history, that allowed Soviet pilots to shoot down each of our
F-86s, multiple times each, to achieve their incredible kill numbers.


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

If you knew your history, or were around at the time, you'd know without being
told that the only reason the US was in that "police action" at all was that the
Soviet Union, during those relatively early UN Security Council days, took a
walk during one of their political snits when the subject came up for
discussion. The SC, in their absence, approved UN intervention in behalf of
South Korea; had the Soviet ambassador been present during that SC discussion,
they could easily (and undoubtedly would have) vetoed it, since they had the
right to do that as all original members of the Security Council could.

So, to answer your question, they fought in behalf of North Korea because North
Korea was one of their client states to whom they furnished all kinds of
military equipment and supplies, as well as the training in their use. They
fought for the NKs because they did not want the world to think their MIG
aircraft, in the hands of relatively green NK pilots, couldn't be competitive
with US military equipment. If they could have turned back the clock, there
wouldn't even have been a war, because they'd have prevented it from happening.
That's it, in a nutshell.

George Z.

"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" wrote in message
...
Raymond Chuang wrote:

"ville terminale" wrote in message
om...


of course they are nonsense. an american pilot was probably 5 times
as good as the best russian pilot.


The Russian pilots acquited themselves well flying the MiG-15 in combat over
Korea but the fact they couldn't communicate in Russian and the problem of
the MiG-15 suffering from yaw instability problems above Mach 0.87 limited
the success of the plane. Indeed, a couple of Russian pilots tried to
outdive the F-86 but the MiG-15 ended up breaking up in the air instead.

The US forces were in Korea as a part of the United nations peace
keeping forces defending South Korea.
Why were there Russian pilots flying for North Korea?
Why was Russia, still a member of the UN, clandestinely fighting
against the UN?

--
Rostyk

Why was Russia, still a member of the UN, clandestinely fighting
against the UN?

Russia had walked out of the Security Council some time prior to the
North Korean invasion of the south. That (and only that) made possible
the UN's decision to send troops to Korea. Otherwise Russia would have
exercised its veto.

Given that the war had been started--literally--behind its back,
Russia presumably felt no obligation to abide by the UN's decision,
any more than China did.

("Communist China" in 1950 was not a member of the UN, Security
Council or otherwise. The Chinese seat was held by "Free China" aka
Taiwan, when Chiang Kai-shek and the KMT had removed themselves the
previous year.)

Russia never again made the mistake of walking out on the Security
Council.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

George Z. Bush wrote:

If you knew your history, or were around at the time, you'd know without being
told that the only reason the US was in that "police action" at all was that the
Soviet Union, during those relatively early UN Security Council days, took a
walk during one of their political snits when the subject came up for
discussion. The SC, in their absence, approved UN intervention in behalf of
South Korea; had the Soviet ambassador been present during that SC discussion,
they could easily (and undoubtedly would have) vetoed it, since they had the
right to do that as all original members of the Security Council could.

Common knowledge.


So, to answer your question, they fought in behalf of North Korea because North
Korea was one of their client states to whom they furnished all kinds of
military equipment and supplies, as well as the training in their use. They
fought for the NKs because they did not want the world to think their MIG
aircraft, in the hands of relatively green NK pilots, couldn't be competitive
with US military equipment. If they could have turned back the clock, there
wouldn't even have been a war, because they'd have prevented it from happening.
That's it, in a nutshell.

George Z.

So you explain, interpret, this as an expression of
simple commercial interests ? ;-)

Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj wrote:
George Z. Bush wrote:

If you knew your history, or were around at the time, you'd know without
being told that the only reason the US was in that "police action" at all
was that the Soviet Union, during those relatively early UN Security Council
days, took a walk during one of their political snits when the subject came
up for discussion. The SC, in their absence, approved UN intervention in
behalf of South Korea; had the Soviet ambassador been present during that SC
discussion, they could easily (and undoubtedly would have) vetoed it, since
they had the right to do that as all original members of the Security
Council could.

Common knowledge.


So, to answer your question, they fought in behalf of North Korea because
North Korea was one of their client states to whom they furnished all kinds
of military equipment and supplies, as well as the training in their use.
They fought for the NKs because they did not want the world to think their
MIG aircraft, in the hands of relatively green NK pilots, couldn't be
competitive with US military equipment. If they could have turned back the
clock, there wouldn't even have been a war, because they'd have prevented it
from happening. That's it, in a nutshell.

George Z.

So you explain, interpret, this as an expression of
simple commercial interests ? ;-)

Only in part. I thought it obvious that everybody would assume that they would
stand up for their ideological bedfellows, and so I didn't think that part of it
was worth mentioning.

(^-^))))

George Z.

In article ,
"George Z. Bush" writes:
If you knew your history, or were around at the time, you'd know without being
told that the only reason the US was in that "police action" at all was that the
Soviet Union, during those relatively early UN Security Council days, took a
walk during one of their political snits when the subject came up for
discussion. The SC, in their absence, approved UN intervention in behalf of
South Korea; had the Soviet ambassador been present during that SC discussion,
they could easily (and undoubtedly would have) vetoed it, since they had the
right to do that as all original members of the Security Council could.

That's not entirely so, G.Z. U.S. troops moved from Japan to Korea
before the U.N. debates, and U.S.A.F. airplanes were shooting down
airplanes and dropping bombs pretty much from Day One. The North
Koreans crossed teh 38th Parellel on June 24, 1950, The U.S. comiited
Air and Naval forces to supporting the ROK Army on Jume 26. The
U.N. Resolution authorizing force was passed on the evening of June
27. (Remember, we're talking about MacArthur, here.)


So, to answer your question, they fought in behalf of North Korea because North
Korea was one of their client states to whom they furnished all kinds of
military equipment and supplies, as well as the training in their use. They
fought for the NKs because they did not want the world to think their MIG
aircraft, in the hands of relatively green NK pilots, couldn't be competitive
with US military equipment. If they could have turned back the clock, there
wouldn't even have been a war, because they'd have prevented it from happening.
That's it, in a nutshell.

Well, the NKPA Air Force dissolved in the first month. The MiGs that
first appeared were Soviet, flown by Soviet Pilots. (151st Guards
Fighter Aviation Division) They first appeared in November, 1950,
about 3 weeks after the U.N. had reached, and the Chinese crossed the
Yalu. The Chinese were getting pretty badly beaten up by
U.S. tactical airpower, which consisted of F-80s, F-51s, and B-26s
(The Douglas ones) at that time.
None of them could, however, compete with the MiGs. The Chinese
didn't start flying their own MiGs in combat until late 1951. The
North Koreans didn't start flying theirs until they got some pilots
trained in late 1952 - whether any made it into combat is a matter of
some dispute.

Now, mind you, they _did_ go to great lengths to hide their
involvement.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Cub Driver wrote in message . ..
Why was Russia, still a member of the UN, clandestinely fighting
against the UN?

Russia had walked out of the Security Council some time prior to the
North Korean invasion of the south. That (and only that) made possible
the UN's decision to send troops to Korea. Otherwise Russia would have
exercised its veto.

Given that the war had been started--literally--behind its back,
Russia presumably felt no obligation to abide by the UN's decision,
any more than China did.


The Soviets (not the Russians to be precise) walked out of the Security
Council thinking that the US would not be able to push through a vote.
While many historians had thought that the Soviets were reluctant
supporters duped by a unruly client, the declassified archives show
otherwise. The Soviets were doing their share of instigating and
were quite active in supporting the North Korean plans
to start a conventional attack on the South. The Korean War was
certainly not started behind Stalin's back.

Han

(Remember, we're talking about MacArthur, here.)

Actually, we're talking about Harry Truman. MacArthur did not move
without instructions from Washington, MacArthur got his orders on
Monday morning, Tokyo time (Sunday evenign in Washington).

As previously noted, Russia had walked out of the Security Council
BEFORE the invasion (because of an unrelated argument over the seating
of "Communist China"). The vote on the intervention was 7-1, with
Yugoslavia voting against. Since Yugoslavia was not a permanent
member, it did not have the veto.

Had Russia not walked out, as a permanent member, it could have vetoed
the "police action".

It is amazing how people can rewrite history for buttress their
beliefs.

(This of course is not to say that Truman would not have intervened on
his own. But MacArthur had neither the authority nor the philosophy
that would have enabled him to join battle in Korea without the
president's direction. To suggest so is to misunderstand both men.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Cub Driver wrote:

[political rant snipped]

It is amazing how people can rewrite history for buttress their
beliefs.

Same goes for how people can ignore the truth and attack
the messenger to buttress their beliefs, or trot out the ol'
"killfile" threat...

KILLFILE
(To the tune: "Rawhide")

Losin’, losin’, losin’,
Trolls we’re disapprovin',
Keep them trolls a-movin', killfile.
Don't try to understand 'em,
Extinguish fires, don’t fan them.
Soon you'll see quiet far and wide.
You’ll miss out on their baitin',
Their arguin’ and ravin',
They’re waitin' to be in your killfile.

Move 'em in, turn ‘em off,
Turn ‘em off, move 'em in,
Move 'em in, turn ‘em off, killfile!
Tune 'em out, put 'em in,
Put 'em in, tune 'em out,
Tune 'em out, put 'em in killfiles!

Trollin', trollin', trollin',
Killfiles all are swollen,
Keep them filters growin', killfile.
Wherever trolls should blather,
Ignore ‘em altogether,
Try it, you’ll have some peace and quiet.
The things that you’ll be missin',
The moanin’ and the ****in',
Are gone if you just kiss ‘em goodbye.

Move 'em in, turn ‘em off,
Turn ‘em off, move 'em in,
Move 'em in, turn ‘em off, killfile!
Tune 'em out, put 'em in,
Put 'em in, tune 'em out,
Tune 'em out, put 'em in killfiles!