SRA Poll

Thanks BB for the response and explanations. Whether I agree with you or
not it is wonderful to have a little insight into how the rules committee
thinks and to know that someone from the rules committee is listening. 5
Ugly

What about embedding the "club class" within our larger sports class?
Use the IGC racing rules so we are preparing for international
contests, but run two scores in parallel. Only count the club class
results towards US team standing. That way, if you want to race,
bring anything you can get your hands on. But if you are serious
about the club class, get a club class ship and race it.

Kirk
66

What about embedding the "club class" within our larger sports class?
Use the IGC racing rules so we are preparing for international
contests, but run two scores in parallel. *Only count the club class
results towards US team standing. *That way, if you want to race,
bring anything you can get your hands on. *But if you are serious
about the club class, get a club class ship and race it.

Kirk
66

That's what we have now. Only gliders on the US team list -- roughly
coincident with the IGC list -- count for US team selection, and the
tasking guidelines focus on club gliders. The "club class" issue is
whether we create a new class where non-qualifying gliders can't even
participate. (We don't use IGC rules in any US class, for lots of
good reasons -- read the IGC rules and it will be clear.)

John Cochrane

At 23:14 18 September 2008, BB wrote:

What about embedding the "club class" within our larger sports
class?
Use the IGC racing rules so we are preparing for international
contests, but run two scores in parallel. =A0Only count the club class
results towards US team standing. =A0That way, if you want to race,
bring anything you can get your hands on. =A0But if you are serious
about the club class, get a club class ship and race it.

Kirk
66

That's what we have now. Only gliders on the US team list -- roughly
coincident with the IGC list -- count for US team selection, and the
tasking guidelines focus on club gliders. The "club class" issue is
whether we create a new class where non-qualifying gliders can't even
participate. (We don't use IGC rules in any US class, for lots of
good reasons -- read the IGC rules and it will be clear.)

John Cochrane

BB I think you are missing the point. Under the current rules a Club Class
glider pilot, whether he wants to make the team or not, is competing
against new state of the art gliders.
Many of the people that I have talked with are not interested in the team
they just want to compete but don't feel they have a chance of winning
against gliders that are way better.
These are the pilots who own a Club Class glider and never fly a contest.
If soaring is to survive in this country we have to tap into the pilots
who have a glider and want to compete but never do because they don't
feel their glider can match up against 27s and the like.
I can't tell you how many times I have heard pilots say. "I am not going
to the contest because I know that I can't compete with KS in his Duo. You
and I know that KS could win in any ship he chooses but many pilots feel
that the playing field would be a bit more level if we all flew gliders
with similar performance.
In the last 3 years I have competed in both regional and national contest
in a D2 and an LS1-F. I have concluded that there is no way you can task
both of these gliders the same and be fair, even with the handicap. No
way, no how. This is not a speculative statement. I have devoted 3 years
to this research. Now imagine flying a 27 or a Duo against the Club Class
glider!
As to the tasking guidelines being "focused" on the Club Class glider.
Not so. In Perry SC several years ago I flew a 3:45 TAT in the sports
class regionals. I guess we were "out of focus" that day.
Why not have a Club Class within the Sports Class for the first year.
Separate class but run along with the sports class. Seperate scoring for
the Club Class glider. Separate winner, etc. You can even have the same
tasking. If it looks promising we can then be completely independent of
the Sports Class or not. Something to think about. Thanks, 5 Ugly

On Sep 18, 6:52�pm, Sam Giltner wrote:
At 23:14 18 September 2008, BB wrote:







What about embedding the "club class" within our larger sports
class?
Use the IGC racing rules so we are preparing for international
contests, but run two scores in parallel. =A0Only count the club class
results towards US team standing. =A0That way, if you want to race,
bring anything you can get your hands on. =A0But if you are serious
about the club class, get a club class ship and race it.

Kirk
66

That's what we have now. Only gliders on the US team list -- roughly
coincident with the IGC list -- count for US team selection, and the
tasking guidelines focus on club gliders. �The "club class" issue is
whether we create a new class where non-qualifying gliders can't even
participate. �(We don't use IGC rules in any US class, for lots of
good reasons -- read the IGC rules and it will be clear.)

John Cochrane

BB I think you are missing the point. Under the current rules a Club Class
glider pilot, whether he wants to make the team or not, is competing
against new state of the art gliders.
Many of the people that I have talked with are not interested in the team
they just want to compete but don't feel they have a chance of winning
against gliders that are way better.
These are the pilots who own a Club Class glider and never fly a contest.
If soaring is to survive in this country we have to tap into the pilots
who have a glider and want to compete but never do because they don't
feel their glider can match up against 27s and the like.
I can't tell you how many times I have heard pilots say. "I am not going
to the contest because I know that I can't compete with KS in his Duo. You
and I know that KS could win in any ship he chooses but many pilots feel
that the playing field would be a bit more level if we all flew gliders
with similar performance. � �
In the last 3 years I have competed in both regional and national contest
in a D2 and an LS1-F. I have concluded that �there is no way you can task
both of these gliders the same and be fair, even with the handicap. No
way, no how. This is not a speculative statement. I have devoted 3 years
to this research. Now imagine flying a 27 or a Duo against the Club Class
glider!
As to the tasking guidelines being "focused" on the Club Class glider.
Not so. In Perry SC several years ago I flew a 3:45 TAT in the sports
class regionals. I guess we were "out of focus" that day.
Why not have a Club Class within the Sports Class for the first year.
Separate class but run along with the sports class. Seperate scoring for
the Club Class glider. Separate winner, etc. You can even have the same
tasking. If it looks promising we can then be completely independent of
the Sports Class or not. Something to think about. � Thanks, 5 Ugly



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Sam, thats a great idea and what I will support. A Sports
Class Nationals held with a Club class. If needed different tasking
for both the classes. This could be done in regionals also. Also, as
far as US Team selection for the World Club Class, pick one from the
Sports Class seeding list and then another from the Club Class seeding
list. Face it, they have used 2 Classes at Nationals to keep them both
alive for many years. So, why not a Club Class within the Sports Class
with dual winners and slots for the US Team.
Also, I support your thoughts about this fade in over 4 years
being really out of phase. We need to make changes now and stop this
pondering over such a long time period.
I will stand with you and hope that others in our racing
circles will start standing up and be heard as to how we need to make
changes, and they really need to be made now. Moffat once said the
only reason in going to a Nationals is to win a slot on the US Team to
get to the Worlds.
Thanks, Sam.
Thermal tight, Soar high, Fly safe # 711.

Sam:

If what you want truly is a new competition class, at all levels,
because you think there is a deep pool of pilots who will come out of
the woodwork to fly it, then it seems perfectly sensible to ask you
and club class advocates try a few and show us it's true. (Hidden
agenda: one of the big participationn problems is how few people are
willing to organize contests thes days!)

The RC has to worry about killing the sports class. If the sports
class dies, many pilots literally have nowhere to go. Where do you
race a Nimbus II or a sparrowhawk with no sports class? Since two
thirds of the pilots at Montague flew nonqulifying gliders, you can
understand that we all need to be sure there are 20 new pilots ready
to jump in to replace the 20 we kick out.

Perhaps what you really want is just to have US team selection come
from a club class only contest, and you're quite happy if there are
never club class regionals. Perhaps you even agree that nobody would
show up for a "club class only" contest unless team points were at
stake.

If so, that's a US team question, not a rules question. The RC worries
about how to run US contests, with a special eye to participation, and
with the interests of the average pilot and the organizers in mind.
The US team worries about team selection issues, and focuses on how to
get winners. OK, we talk to each other, but it really doens't make
sense to introduce a whole new class just to jigger around the team
selection rules that we don't write.

If this is really what you want, you could get that much more easily
by asking the US team to run a separate scoresheet for team selection
in club nationals. We don't have to go through the huge effort of
starting a new class -- and making sure it's supported through the
years, at all levels; and that pilots investment in equipment isn't
invalidated by precipitous changes in a few years, and that it doesn't
kill sports -- just to raise the nationals scores of the club team.

Note to all pilots: the most important questions on this poll are
likely to be the questions "would you fly in this class" and "would
less sports class hurt you". We want data rather than guessing about
whether there are people who want to do this.

Again, my opinions only, and keep yours opinions coming -- the RC
wants to hear from everyone on this issue.

John Cochrane
BB

BB PLease forgive me but my most recent response to you did not mention THE
TEAM, it did not mention doing away with the Sports Class. Please read my
response again to verify!
I really don't understand why you are so focused on THE TEAM and how the
Club Class will kill the Sports Class. Nowhere in any of my responses have
I mentioned THE TEAM or that we should do away with the Sports Class.
Last month I sent out to the rules committee and other interested pilots
my idea of how both the Sports Class and the Club Class have a place in
this country. If you didn't receive the E MAil I will be glan to send it
again. Just let me know.
But Please lets get off the idea that the reason I am supporting the Club
Class is NOT, I repeat, NOT to justify THE TEAM!
If you kindly give me your cell I would love to talk further. Sam


At 14:43 19 September 2008, BB wrote:
Sam:

If what you want truly is a new competition class, at all levels,
because you think there is a deep pool of pilots who will come out of
the woodwork to fly it, then it seems perfectly sensible to ask you
and club class advocates try a few and show us it's true. (Hidden
agenda: one of the big participationn problems is how few people are
willing to organize contests thes days!)

The RC has to worry about killing the sports class. If the sports
class dies, many pilots literally have nowhere to go. Where do you
race a Nimbus II or a sparrowhawk with no sports class? Since two
thirds of the pilots at Montague flew nonqulifying gliders, you can
understand that we all need to be sure there are 20 new pilots ready
to jump in to replace the 20 we kick out.

Perhaps what you really want is just to have US team selection come
from a club class only contest, and you're quite happy if there are
never club class regionals. Perhaps you even agree that nobody would
show up for a "club class only" contest unless team points were at
stake.

If so, that's a US team question, not a rules question. The RC worries
about how to run US contests, with a special eye to participation, and
with the interests of the average pilot and the organizers in mind.
The US team worries about team selection issues, and focuses on how to
get winners. OK, we talk to each other, but it really doens't make
sense to introduce a whole new class just to jigger around the team
selection rules that we don't write.

If this is really what you want, you could get that much more easily
by asking the US team to run a separate scoresheet for team selection
in club nationals. We don't have to go through the huge effort of
starting a new class -- and making sure it's supported through the
years, at all levels; and that pilots investment in equipment isn't
invalidated by precipitous changes in a few years, and that it doesn't
kill sports -- just to raise the nationals scores of the club team.

Note to all pilots: the most important questions on this poll are
likely to be the questions "would you fly in this class" and "would
less sports class hurt you". We want data rather than guessing about
whether there are people who want to do this.

Again, my opinions only, and keep yours opinions coming -- the RC
wants to hear from everyone on this issue.

John Cochrane
BB