Question about the F-22 and it's radar.

So the processors are obsolete, (too old)... the Avionic architecture
needs to be replaced before the F-22 can become the F/A-22 because the
present system is based on the old processors and rewriting the code
is pointless on an obsolete system, that would only support half of
the F-22 fleet

Methinks there's some confusion there between processors, avionics
architecture, and software.
While it's true that Intel tried to shut down i960 production causing a
chinese fire drill, there are enough assets to get by until a new processor is
ready. That has nothing to do with the avionics architecture, which is
not changing. Plus the whole point of writing all the OS and AS in Ada was
to be as platform independent as possible, so that upgrades to the CIP
could be relatively painless and not force re-flight testing of the A/C.
Ideally, one would not re-write the code, but re-compile the code for
the new platform, then do a LOT of integrity checks, and take it from there...


The question is does this 'new' processor conform to the 3 F's, Form
Fit and Function?, If not then the processor demands a new
architecture to support it, with the new architecture comes the the
burden of porting it over, couple that with the reliability problems
now being experienced and you have a flakey system thats being ported.

AFAIK there is no 3F for the i960, therefor the system has quite
neatly side stepped the reletivly painless CIP upgrade path.

The F-22 is under enormous pressure to perform right now, with the
review reporting back in the next few months, any talk of obsolete
systems in the state of the art jet are being downplayed.

They have to go with a more COTS based system (similar to, if not the
same as the JSF), which they are working on now, for fielding in (very
optomisticlly) in 2007.

Other than using commercialy available processor chips, what is "COTS"
about it?
Hint - nothing.

Other than the Raptors costs its the cheapest fighter in the world...
seriously the F-22 team will be levering the development work on the
JSF for all its worth, anything to shove costs away from the f-22
program.

What is the new processor? I always thought that a federated system
had certain advantages with regard to upgradeing.


Other facts (what a concept in RAM)
The F-22 is also based on commercialy available processor chips (but
not a commercial architecture)
Avionics systems require a much higher level of security and determinism
than any "COTS" package will ever offer.
COTS is not necessarily cheaper when talking avionics

COTS is one of those words that everyone thinks they understand, until
it comes down to brass tacks.


A simple analogy for you, the old 486 computer still works, but when I
wanted to run XP on it the demands of the system increased to the
point where it was useless to try, and you couldn't buy a 486
processor anywhere to support it.

I call that an 'obsolete system', it worked great running win 98.

Your analogy is seriously flawed for several reasons:
A processor does not stand alone, it's part of a system, and many,
many other things affect the system performance besides processor
speed. Backside bus bandwidth, memory architecture, frontside bus
bandwidth, etc.
Plus the system in this case contains MANY processors in parallel.
The system is officially termed a heterogeneous multi-processing system
which means that it has several different kinds of processors as well
as the i960, and all running in parallel. I think someone calculated
the actual processing resources are equal to 2 Cray Y-MP supercomputers.
Software also matters. Comparing avionics software to microS's
bloatware is ludicrous.

It was a simple analogy, not designed to compare avionics and M$ code,
but to show why an upgrade is required, if it can't hack the
requirements it needs upgrading, its that simple, If it can hack it,
no upgrade is required - simple as that.



Now the Raptor can't run the software to do its air to ground mission
for the same reasons what would you call it?. "processor
challenged???"

I'd say, take a hard look at the above assertation and explain how it
can be true, given that other AESA radars, in service, and with smaller
avionics processors, don't seem to be having these problems.

Take it up with the USAF, their requirements call for a certain level
of capability in the AtoG role, the F-22 currently does not have the
software or the hardware to fullfill that capability - hence the need
for upgrades, what other reason is there for an upgrade...?.



BTW, I worked on AFT, F-22, and several other current AESA programs,
including airborne processors, and integrated avionics systems.


Great, here' s a couple of questions for you.
Do you think they will combine the AESA antennas for the JSF and the
F-22 to a common 1200 module system? (I saw the number of modules for
the F-22 was at 1500). I had heard a rumour that this was on the
cards for cost savings etc.

Why is the Raptors Software so troubled?.

Cheers


John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

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Harry

Quick question - I just read that F-22 crew now carry cell phones for
when the systems go down, so they can talk to ground control, is this
true??

Cheers
John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

Email Address :-
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"John Cook" wrote in message
...
Just the official reports!!, Lockheed has only purchased enough
processors for 155 F-22's because there out of production, the demand
for Air to ground operations has increased the demand on processing
power, something the original processors are not quite upto hence the
_need_ for the 'upgrade'.

I kind of find that hard to believe. The system I worked on (and is still a
front line system) was based on Z-80's and a bunch of other 'exotic' chips.
If they can still find parts for that, the F-22's radar should be too
'obselete'.

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 02:23:27 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"John Cook" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:16:28 -0700, Scott Ferrin
wrote:




Gotta question about the following:

""USAF officials also rejected the forecast that the service will need
to spend $11.7 billion to introduce air-to-ground capabilities in the
F/A-22. Roche says planned upgrades, including a new radar and
small-diameter bomb, are budgeted and would cost less than $3.5
billion. . . ""



So when they say "new radar" are the talking about replacing the
APG-77 with an APG-XX or are they just talking about new software or a
mod of the -77? I'd ask what the hell they need a new radar for as
the F-22 itself is not even in service yet and it's *current* radar
should be considered "new" but seeing how it's been over a decade
since the YF-22 flew it's no wonder.

OK this is from memory... and the sources are not strictly 'official'.

I had heard some rumours that the F-35 and F-22 AESA antennae will be
merged because the MMIC's from the F-35 will be retrofitted to the
F-22's ( they are very expensive and larger.)

The number of MMIC's may also be the same in both aircraft to make a
common 'cheap' AESA antennae (1200 IIRC).


See
http://www.irconnect.com/noc/press/p....mhtml?d=59037

"Northrop Grumman Begins Flight-Testing New Radar for F/A-22 Raptor
BALTIMORE, June 11, 2004 -- Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC)
has successfully conducted the first flight test of a new,
fourth-generation variant of the AN/APG-77 active electronically
scanned array radar for the U.S. Air Force's F/A-22 Raptor air
dominance fighter aircraft.

The new design is intended to reduce the production and maintenance
costs of the Raptor's third-generation radar by adapting the design
that was implemented successfully in the AN/APG-81 radar for the F-35
Joint Strike Fighter and the AN/APG-80 for the Block 60 F-16 fighter.
This newest variant requires significantly fewer parts than the
third-generation, and the production line relies on a greater degree
of automation.

In addition, Northrop Grumman's Electronic Systems sector is
developing software for the new radar that will enable it to perform
high-resolution mapping of ground targets. This will permit true
all-weather, precision strike capability that will transform the air
dominance fighter into a multi-mission asset.

"We are proud to have developed this new capability for the F/A-22,"
said Jerry Dunnigan, director of F/A-22 Radar Programs at Northrop
Grumman. "We believe that the transformational capabilities of
high-resolution ground-mapping and automatic target cueing will ensure
that Raptor pilots have all the information they need when they go in
harm's way."

Based on current Department of Defense plans, Northrop Grumman will
deliver approximately 203 of the new radars. These include retrofits
for some of the third-generation radars already in service on
operational aircraft. Northrop Grumman is conducting the flight-test
program aboard one of its BAC 1-11 flying testbed aircraft. The
company produces the radar under contract to The Boeing Company's
(NYSE:BA) Integrated Defense Systems unit, which has responsibility
for integrating the avionic systems for the F/A-22 program, which is
led by Lockheed Martin's (NYSE:LMT) Aeronautics Company. Raytheon
Systems of McKinney, Tex., is a joint-venture partner on the radar. "


Cheers
John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

Email Address :-
Spam trap - please remove (trousers) to email me
Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

"John Cook" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 02:23:27 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"John Cook" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:16:28 -0700, Scott Ferrin
wrote:




Gotta question about the following:

""USAF officials also rejected the forecast that the service will need
to spend $11.7 billion to introduce air-to-ground capabilities in the
F/A-22. Roche says planned upgrades, including a new radar and
small-diameter bomb, are budgeted and would cost less than $3.5
billion. . . ""



So when they say "new radar" are the talking about replacing the
APG-77 with an APG-XX or are they just talking about new software or a
mod of the -77? I'd ask what the hell they need a new radar for as
the F-22 itself is not even in service yet and it's *current* radar
should be considered "new" but seeing how it's been over a decade
since the YF-22 flew it's no wonder.

OK this is from memory... and the sources are not strictly 'official'.

I had heard some rumours that the F-35 and F-22 AESA antennae will be
merged because the MMIC's from the F-35 will be retrofitted to the
F-22's ( they are very expensive and larger.)

The number of MMIC's may also be the same in both aircraft to make a
common 'cheap' AESA antennae (1200 IIRC).


None of the above was from me, so why did you leave me in the poster list?

Brooks


See
http://www.irconnect.com/noc/press/p....mhtml?d=59037

"Northrop Grumman Begins Flight-Testing New Radar for F/A-22 Raptor
BALTIMORE, June 11, 2004 -- Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC)
has successfully conducted the first flight test of a new,
fourth-generation variant of the AN/APG-77 active electronically
scanned array radar for the U.S. Air Force's F/A-22 Raptor air
dominance fighter aircraft.

The new design is intended to reduce the production and maintenance
costs of the Raptor's third-generation radar by adapting the design
that was implemented successfully in the AN/APG-81 radar for the F-35
Joint Strike Fighter and the AN/APG-80 for the Block 60 F-16 fighter.
This newest variant requires significantly fewer parts than the
third-generation, and the production line relies on a greater degree
of automation.

In addition, Northrop Grumman's Electronic Systems sector is
developing software for the new radar that will enable it to perform
high-resolution mapping of ground targets. This will permit true
all-weather, precision strike capability that will transform the air
dominance fighter into a multi-mission asset.

"We are proud to have developed this new capability for the F/A-22,"
said Jerry Dunnigan, director of F/A-22 Radar Programs at Northrop
Grumman. "We believe that the transformational capabilities of
high-resolution ground-mapping and automatic target cueing will ensure
that Raptor pilots have all the information they need when they go in
harm's way."

Based on current Department of Defense plans, Northrop Grumman will
deliver approximately 203 of the new radars. These include retrofits
for some of the third-generation radars already in service on
operational aircraft. Northrop Grumman is conducting the flight-test
program aboard one of its BAC 1-11 flying testbed aircraft. The
company produces the radar under contract to The Boeing Company's
(NYSE:BA) Integrated Defense Systems unit, which has responsibility
for integrating the avionic systems for the F/A-22 program, which is
led by Lockheed Martin's (NYSE:LMT) Aeronautics Company. Raytheon
Systems of McKinney, Tex., is a joint-venture partner on the radar. "


Cheers
John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

Email Address :-
Spam trap - please remove (trousers) to email me
Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

None of the above was from me, so why did you leave me in the poster list?

Brooks

My deepest apologies, its a lesson we all can learn from in this NG

Cheers.






John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

Email Address :-
Spam trap - please remove (trousers) to email me
Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

The whole avionics suite of the F-22 is now obsolete, and w

Whole avionics suite?
I think thats an understatement

..Normally a program this far into production can't be cancelled, but
this program seems to be trying real hard...

LOL

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
The whole avionics suite of the F-22 is now obsolete, and w

Whole avionics suite?
I think thats an understatement

True, but the money is already spent.

.Normally a program this far into production can't be cancelled, but
this program seems to be trying real hard...

LOL

No, the F-22 has been hosed from before there was a YF-22. The fighter
mafia screwed the pooch mightily on this one. To actually try to do with
the i960 what Intel themselves failed to do with the i860 is laughable.

I remember the i432 we received to do controls development for large space
structures at RPL and it was supposed to be capable of being faster than our
Cyber 180. Intel was toast on that one and IBM was more than happy to
corner the 8088 market.