DARPA calls for help in designing submersible aircraft

Actually this whole idea reminds me of the unfortunate Convair F2Y Sea Dart
project.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F2Y_Sea_Dart

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Charles Vincent wrote:

Vehicle would be used to secretly drop military teams along coastal
locations -- Sharon Gaudin

October 9, 2008 (Computerworld) It may sound like something out of a
James Bond movie, but the U.S. military's Defense Advanced Research
Projects Agency is putting out the call for researchers to come up with
a design for a submersible aircraft.

Yup, you read it right. DARPA, a research branch of the U.S. Department
of Defense, is looking for someone to prove that a vehicle can be built
that will fly, as well as maneuver underwater.

The "Flying Sub" from "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea".
The Flying Sub was launched and recovered from a bay in the forward
section of the Seaview.
(You youngsters may have to do a Goodle search to learn what I am
referring to. Testor's sold a model of it.)

John Smith wrote:
In article ,
Charles Vincent wrote:

Vehicle would be used to secretly drop military teams along coastal
locations -- Sharon Gaudin

October 9, 2008 (Computerworld) It may sound like something out of a
James Bond movie, but the U.S. military's Defense Advanced Research
Projects Agency is putting out the call for researchers to come up with
a design for a submersible aircraft.

Yup, you read it right. DARPA, a research branch of the U.S. Department
of Defense, is looking for someone to prove that a vehicle can be built
that will fly, as well as maneuver underwater.

The "Flying Sub" from "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea".
The Flying Sub was launched and recovered from a bay in the forward
section of the Seaview.
(You youngsters may have to do a Goodle search to learn what I am
referring to. Testor's sold a model of it.)

It always entered the water at and angle and velocity guaranteed to
cause severe injury or death to the occupants.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

In article , Dan wrote:
John Smith wrote:
In article ,
Charles Vincent wrote:

Vehicle would be used to secretly drop military teams along coastal
locations -- Sharon Gaudin

October 9, 2008 (Computerworld) It may sound like something out of a
James Bond movie, but the U.S. military's Defense Advanced Research
Projects Agency is putting out the call for researchers to come up with
a design for a submersible aircraft.

Yup, you read it right. DARPA, a research branch of the U.S. Department
of Defense, is looking for someone to prove that a vehicle can be built
that will fly, as well as maneuver underwater.

The "Flying Sub" from "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea".
The Flying Sub was launched and recovered from a bay in the forward
section of the Seaview.
(You youngsters may have to do a Goodle search to learn what I am
referring to. Testor's sold a model of it.)

It always entered the water at and angle and velocity guaranteed to
cause severe injury or death to the occupants.

Nah. You just don't understand modern engineering.

It had big RASP (Rocket-Assist-Sea-Penetration) packs which were triggered
_just_ before water contact. The massive forward thrust was exactly offset
by the increased drag of the water, and thus, there was zero net change in
velocity.

*snicker*



As for the DARPA project, it's *EASY*!!

Start with the basic V-22 Osprey design, watertight the entire hull, and
structurally reinforce as needed, for the maximum desired operating depth.

Next replace the Rolls Royce AE1107C engines with appropriate electric
drives. Extend the drive shaft out the rear of the wing, with a
variable pitch _water_ propeller on that end. Add clutching so that
either end can be engaged/disengaged independently.

Lastly, pull out the fuel tanks and replace with a 'suitcase nuke'
power plant.

Revisit the aircraft structural components, and scale up for the
increased weight load.

Add ballast tank(s) as needed to achieve neutral buoyancy.

All the rest is 'implementation details' - trivial!


Like I said, nothing difficult about it. One might even say it was
a "no-brainer". snicker

Charles Vincent wrote:


In a statement, DARPA said that "prior attempts to demonstrate a vehicle
with the maneuverability of both a submersible and an aircraft have
primarily explored approaches that would endow flight capability to
platforms that were largely optimized for underwater operations." Those
efforts, the agency said, "have been unsuccessful largely because the
design requirements for a submersible and an aircraft are diametrically
opposed."

DARPA noted that a submersible aircraft requires the speed and range of
an aircraft and the loiter capabilities of a boat; along with the
stealth of a submarine.

The agency is first looking for conceptual design proposals. The
proposals must also identify technical challenges and outline models or
experiments that will show how those challenges can be overcome.

Perhaps the Mid-Atlantic Air Museum will enter theirs.

http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contri...nhard/6559.htm


Kevin Gallimore


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On Oct 9, 2:51*pm, Charles Vincent wrote:
Vehicle would be used to secretly drop military teams along coastal
locations -- Sharon Gaudin
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not impossible.

I think they started in from the wrong direction, in that they tried
to make a submersable fly.

But aside from that... How big is a 'team'? How deep does it have to
dive? How fast does it have to fly? And how far?

Small team, say four men including the pilot.

One method that's worth exploring is to use the same prop for both air
& water.

You'd definitely want to do something about those air-scoops -)

Major problem would be getting an airframe to sink. Lotsa voids to
trap air going one way, water going the other.

If it didn't have to dive too deeply, say 33 feet or less, you could
probably use one of the new diesel engines for both airborne and
submerged propulsion.

Any way you hack it, it sounds like a fun project :-)

-R.S.Hoover

In article
,
" wrote:

On Oct 9, 2:51*pm, Charles Vincent wrote:
Vehicle would be used to secretly drop military teams along coastal
locations -- Sharon Gaudin
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Not impossible.

I think they started in from the wrong direction, in that they tried
to make a submersable fly.

But aside from that... How big is a 'team'? How deep does it have to
dive? How fast does it have to fly? And how far?

Small team, say four men including the pilot.

One method that's worth exploring is to use the same prop for both air
& water.

Too much density difference between water and air!



You'd definitely want to do something about those air-scoops -)

You'd have to supply oxgen to the engine(s).


Major problem would be getting an airframe to sink. Lotsa voids to
trap air going one way, water going the other.

Getting it to sink isn't a problem -- getting it to FLOAT afterwards is!


If it didn't have to dive too deeply, say 33 feet or less, you could
probably use one of the new diesel engines for both airborne and
submerged propulsion.

Any way you hack it, it sounds like a fun project :-)

-R.S.Hoover

It also sounds like a project that sacrifices all of its payload to two
dissimilar missions -- submergence and flying.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

Anybody remember that inflatable airplane Goodyear experimented with
after WWII? I would think launching something like that from a small
real sub would be the best way to accomplish this goal. Perhaps modern
materials could over come the problems with the first inflatable planes.

Tony

In article ,
Anthony W wrote:

Anybody remember that inflatable airplane Goodyear experimented with
after WWII? I would think launching something like that from a small
real sub would be the best way to accomplish this goal. Perhaps modern
materials could over come the problems with the first inflatable planes.

The Ohio Historical Society has one of, if not the sole surviving
Inflatoplane. They inherited it from the defunct aviation museum that
was located at Port Columbus International Airport/KCMH. Sadly, it will
never see the light of day, again.

John Smith wrote:
In article ,
Anthony W wrote:

Anybody remember that inflatable airplane Goodyear experimented with
after WWII? I would think launching something like that from a small
real sub would be the best way to accomplish this goal. Perhaps modern
materials could over come the problems with the first inflatable planes.

The Ohio Historical Society has one of, if not the sole surviving
Inflatoplane. They inherited it from the defunct aviation museum that
was located at Port Columbus International Airport/KCMH. Sadly, it will
never see the light of day, again.

It's too bad they won't give it to a real aviation museum.

I'd think that anybody that was seriously interested in resurrecting the
project could learn all they need to get started from the history
channel show the subject.

Tony

On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:02:15 GMT, Anthony W
wrote:

Anybody remember that inflatable airplane Goodyear experimented with
after WWII? I would think launching something like that from a small
real sub would be the best way to accomplish this goal. Perhaps modern
materials could over come the problems with the first inflatable planes.

Tony
*****************************************

As I recall the inflatable airplane was to be air dropped to a downed
pilot and he could inflate (think the little engine had an air pump
built in????and take off and fly back to a safe area. Range was short.
Maybe 50 miles???

Others may have a better memory than mine but being a Fighter Pilot
was interested as I might have to use if they deployed it.

An other system they worked on and made a couple of practice
extractions, was a C-130 with a large "V" set of arms on the nose. A
nylon rope and harness with a balloon and a small cylinder of
compressed helium completed the ground set that was dropped to pilot
on the ground.

Pilot strapped himself into the harness and after making contact with
the recovery C-130 inflated the colored balloon and let the nylon rope
out to its full length. Pilot set on ground facing the approaching
aircraft and bird made a low pass and caught the nylon rope in the
center of the "V" where it actuated a locking device to hold the rope
tight. As bird flew over pilot and rope tightened it picked the pilot
up off the ground and he trailed the C-130. A crew in the back of bird
standing on the door, had a pole with a hook on it to catch the rope.
When rope was caught and pulled in the bird the crew then pulled the
extracted Pilot in and all went home happy to the bar (maybe mission
whisky from Flight Surgeon ).

I had some experience picking targets off the ground using a nylon
rope. Bird would pick up bridal and initiate a climb and target would
slowly lift off ground and move in the opposite direction of aircraft
flight for 5-10 feet and then as nylon rope felt the full weight it
acted like a big rubber band and the target accelerated smoothly to
the aircraft speed,

I'm sure the pilot retrieval system had the same characteristics and
downed pilot got a smooth low "G" ride.

Just another War story.

Big John