Radio altimeter fault triggered Turkish Airlines crash

If you can't answer the question why did you post a reply? ( Does this
sound at all familiar to you? )

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Musicrab writes:

What's the Boeing 737-800 flight manual say about what to do when left
and
right hand altimeters don't match?

It surely points out that working altimeters are required for an automated
approach. The airline flew with broken altimeters, and after tempting
fate
several times, it finally caught up with them.

Turkish Airlines has the worst safety record of all airlines in Europe and
the
U.S. combined, in terms of flights with fatalities over total flights.
And it
trails by quite a margin.

On Mar 4, 2:21*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Musicrab writes:
What's the Boeing 737-800 flight manual say about what to do when left and
right hand altimeters don't match?

It surely points out that working altimeters are required for an automated
approach. *The airline flew with broken altimeters, and after tempting fate
several times, it finally caught up with them.

Turkish Airlines has the worst safety record of all airlines in Europe and the
U.S. combined, in terms of flights with fatalities over total flights. *And it
trails by quite a margin.

I don't think (and could be wrong) that a coupled/automated approach
does in fact need a conventional altimeter.

a wrote:
On Mar 4, 2:21 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Musicrab writes:

snip

I don't think (and could be wrong) that a coupled/automated approach
does in fact need a conventional altimeter.

In my F-4 it did not. But that was back in the mid 80s with an analog
autopilot.

Also, can some explain what retard is?

Danny Deger

"DannyDot" wrote in message
...
a wrote:
On Mar 4, 2:21 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Musicrab writes:

snip

I don't think (and could be wrong) that a coupled/automated approach
does in fact need a conventional altimeter.

In my F-4 it did not. But that was back in the mid 80s with an analog
autopilot.

Also, can some explain what retard is?

Danny Deger

Mx=retard=Mx=retard=

On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 18:27:00 -0600, DannyDot
wrote:

a wrote:
On Mar 4, 2:21 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Musicrab writes:

snip

I don't think (and could be wrong) that a coupled/automated approach
does in fact need a conventional altimeter.

In my F-4 it did not. But that was back in the mid 80s with an analog
autopilot.

Also, can some explain what retard is?

They must have been doing an autoland if the radio altimeter was
involved. It feeds the autopilots AGL for calculating when to reduce
thrust and begin the flare. Otherwise it would have just been
following the NAV inputs for GS and LOC down to whenever the airline
SOP dictated disconnection of AP/AT for a hand-flown landing.

IIUC, "retard" is a callout in an Airbus for idle thrust. Never flown
one so no idea.

On Thu, 05 Mar 2009 07:13:12 -0500, Just go look it up! wrote:

On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 18:27:00 -0600, DannyDot
wrote:

a wrote:
On Mar 4, 2:21 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Musicrab writes:

snip

I don't think (and could be wrong) that a coupled/automated approach
does in fact need a conventional altimeter.

In my F-4 it did not. But that was back in the mid 80s with an analog
autopilot.

Also, can some explain what retard is?

They must have been doing an autoland if the radio altimeter was
involved. It feeds the autopilots AGL for calculating when to reduce
thrust and begin the flare. Otherwise it would have just been
following the NAV inputs for GS and LOC down to whenever the airline
SOP dictated disconnection of AP/AT for a hand-flown landing.


We could have autolanded the F-4 without an radio altimeter because it was
carrier qualified. I was in the Air Force, but our F-4s could land without
a flare and without a throttle adjustment. Put in on airspeed and
glideslope and fly in into the ground :-)

Danny Deger

On Mar 4, 11:21*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Musicrab writes:
What's the Boeing 737-800 flight manual say about what to do when left and
right hand altimeters don't match?

It surely points out that working altimeters are required for an automated
approach. *The airline flew with broken altimeters, and after tempting fate
several times, it finally caught up with them.

You are talking about standard altitude altimeters or RAs? From
reading the it appears that the concern is about the RA's not the
altimeters. No plane is going to flare as a result of a reading from a
pressure altimeter.

-Robret

In article ,
says...


On Mar 4, 11:21*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Musicrab writes:
What's the Boeing 737-800 flight manual say about what to do when left and
right hand altimeters don't match?

It surely points out that working altimeters are required for an automated
approach. *The airline flew with broken altimeters, and after tempting fate
several times, it finally caught up with them.

You are talking about standard altitude altimeters or RAs? From
reading the it appears that the concern is about the RA's not the
altimeters. No plane is going to flare as a result of a reading from a
pressure altimeter.

-Robret

Technicalities. MXS is talking about FATE - that's his explanation for the
crash. If the NTSB disagrees, it simply means they are wrong, and their staff
are dangerous pilots.

"-b-" wrote in message
...
In article
,
says...


On Mar 4, 11:21 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Musicrab writes:
What's the Boeing 737-800 flight manual say about what to do when left
and
right hand altimeters don't match?

It surely points out that working altimeters are required for an
automated
approach. The airline flew with broken altimeters, and after tempting
fate
several times, it finally caught up with them.

You are talking about standard altitude altimeters or RAs? From
reading the it appears that the concern is about the RA's not the
altimeters. No plane is going to flare as a result of a reading from a
pressure altimeter.

-Robret

Technicalities. MXS is talking about FATE - that's his explanation for the
crash. If the NTSB disagrees, it simply means they are wrong, and their
staff
are dangerous pilots.


with poor attitudes and high testosterone levels.

Robert M. Gary writes:

You are talking about standard altitude altimeters or RAs?

RAs. One of them had malfunctioned on several previous flights, according to
the flight data recorders. The airline had not bothered to fix it, even
though it is essential for autoland (perhaps the airline expected its pilots
to be alert and hard-working enough to fly landings by hand, although that's
not really an excuse).

No plane is going to flare as a result of a reading from a
pressure altimeter.

But it probably will if the RA says that it's 7 feet below the runway.