King KT-78 Transponder

Gliders are exempt from transponder requirements. However, having a transponder makes me wonder with the change in 2020 in the US to ADS-B, will any of these Mode C transponders still be allowed/useful?

Anyone thinking of installing a transponder in a plane that currently doesn't have one in an area (esp US or EU) that supports ADS-B should seriously consider getting one with Mode-S, and that can participate in ADS-B http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADS-B

--bob

Yes they will still be allows red, but the question is what will ATC do with them?

Here's an FAA doc that describes the 2020 changes. It doesn't say anything about gliders, but it does talk about LSA and uncertified installs : https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/ga/media...fing-ADS-B.pdf

--bob

Interesring that this thread came back to life. So now the rest of the story...

I did buy a Garmin 320 but never installed it. I later picked up a Microair T2000 for a good deal on an insurance salvage auction and installed it in the Cherokee. It works really good and I use it often to get radar service from Wichita Approach and occasionally fly in or over the Class C.

I liked it so much that we bought another T2000 from Europe and put it in the Std Cirrus. I've also spent some time in the Class C in that glider as well as getting radar services from Longview (Texas) Approach on my way to Louisiana last April.

On Tuesday, January 20, 2015 at 7:19:04 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Anyone thinking of installing a transponder in a plane that currently doesn't
have one in an area (esp US or EU) that supports ADS-B should seriously
consider getting one with Mode-S, and that can participate in ADS-B
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADS-B

--bob

For more info, see: http://www.gliderpilot.org/FLARM-Transponders
Enjoy, Best Regards, Dave

It does mention aircraft certificated without electrical systems, which
I believe means "engine driven" electrical systems. It's pretty
convoluted (as usual), but here's a part of the text:

(e)The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any
aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system,
or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system
installed, including balloons and gliders (my emphasis). These aircraft
may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in
paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by
this section must be conducted—
(1)Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and
(2)Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace
area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.

Time will tell but I'm glad I installed a Trig TT-22.

On 1/20/2015 5:29 AM, wrote:
Yes they will still be allows red, but the question is what will ATC do with them?

Here's an FAA doc that describes the 2020 changes. It doesn't say anything about gliders, but it does talk about LSA and uncertified installs : https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/ga/media...fing-ADS-B.pdf

--bob

--
Dan Marotta

On Tuesday, January 20, 2015 at 10:44:58 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:

Time will tell but I'm glad I installed a Trig TT-22.

That's nice, but aren't you going to get bored staying below 10,000 ft? Because that's what you will have to do to stay legal, unless you have an approved WAAS GPS hooked up to that nice Trig of yours!

And right now, there is only one approved WAAS GPS for the TT-22, the FreeFlight WAAS 1201, and it isn't cheap at $2900. Just hooking the Trig to your logger's GPS won't hack it! Hopefully that situation will get better as 2020 approaches.

Or you can double up and get ADS-B out, and go up to 18,000...

Thank you FAA for a really botched system!

Kirk
66

Thanks Kirk,

I've already looked at the FreeFlight system. Then there's this:
http://www.trig-avionics.com/tn70.html. Either way, I've still got
almost 5 years to squirrel away my pennies. I'll only need to save
about $12/week to make that goal.

Where I live, 10K won't do. The way I read it (and I am neither a
lawyer nor did I play one on TV), according to CFR 91.225 (d)(4) states:

(4)Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, Class E airspace
within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and
above 10,000 feet MSL (my emphasis), excluding the airspace at and below
2,500 feet above the surface; and

And CFR 91.225 (e)(2) states:

(e)The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any
aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system,
or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system
installed, including balloons and gliders (my emphasis). These aircraft
may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in
paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by
this section must be conducted—
(1)Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area (no problem for most of
us glider pilots); and
(2)Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace
area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
(This seems to conflict with Para (4) above unless the meaning regards
within the boundaries of the Class B or Class C airspace.)


(at and above 10,000' MSL) and (e) (gliders are exempt). Gotta read
more closely and lobby the SSA and AOPA. Maybe get a hydrogen fuel cell
to power all this crap! :-D

Still to be considered are ADS-B In and the necessary display technology
but I don't think that's required and, out in the middle of nowhere
where I fly, I don't think I need to be concerned.

Dan

On 1/20/2015 10:52 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Tuesday, January 20, 2015 at 10:44:58 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:

Time will tell but I'm glad I installed a Trig TT-22.
That's nice, but aren't you going to get bored staying below 10,000 ft? Because that's what you will have to do to stay legal, unless you have an approved WAAS GPS hooked up to that nice Trig of yours!

And right now, there is only one approved WAAS GPS for the TT-22, the FreeFlight WAAS 1201, and it isn't cheap at $2900. Just hooking the Trig to your logger's GPS won't hack it! Hopefully that situation will get better as 2020 approaches.

Or you can double up and get ADS-B out, and go up to 18,000...

Thank you FAA for a really botched system!

Kirk
66

--
Dan Marotta

Kirk

You are misreading the 14 CFR 91.225 ADS-B requirements here. The wording is awful but there is no general 10,000' limit as you imply. 14 CFR 91.225 (e)(2) states "Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower." The later parts of that sentence apply to the situation in the earlier part, so it's below 10,000' (or the ceiling of class B or C) airspace when flying within the lateral constraints of class B or C airspace. Yep, you would have to work hard to write this sentence worse than it is currently...

And another way to be sure of this is the wording here is effectively identical to the transponder exemptions for aircraft without an engine drive electrical system provided by 14 CFR 91.215 and nobody thinks gliders without transponders are restricted to flight below 10,000'.

So basically in both cases think of this as aircraft certified without an electrical systems... your aircraft is exempt from some of transponder and ADS-B carriage requirements but you still can't (without special arrangement) fly in Class C or B airspace without a transponder, and on and after 2020 also without ADS-B Out. Mode-S veils do not apply to that aircraft, but when within the lateral bounds of Class B or C airspace you must still remain below the Class B or C airspace ceiling or 10,000' whichever is lower.

And yes that would mean currently an approved ADS-B install, not come cobbled together system with COTS GPS. In other situations there may be some light at the end of the tunnel with the FAA releasing TSO-C199 "Traffic Awareness Beacon System (TABS)"... basically for gizmos that look like low-power Mode-S transponders, but don't quite implement the full transponder feature set, and optionally have some ADS-B 1090ES data-out capability... and they can use simpler/cheaper GPS systems than currently required for ADS-B data-out. TSO-C199 systems are intended for traffic awareness/avoidance compatibility and not for ATC use so I'd not expect anything say related to Class C or B airspace restrictions to change if an aircraft was equipped with a TSO-C199 compatible system. It is too early to tell whether any manufacturers will really get behind the work needed to support getting a system approved.

[Tony I'm glad to see you made progress by following my earlier "helpful" advice :-)]

Darryl


On Tuesday, January 20, 2015 at 9:52:33 AM UTC-8, kirk.stant wrote:
[snip]
That's nice, but aren't you going to get bored staying below 10,000 ft? Because that's what you will have to do to stay legal, unless you have an approved WAAS GPS hooked up to that nice Trig of yours!

And right now, there is only one approved WAAS GPS for the TT-22, the FreeFlight WAAS 1201, and it isn't cheap at $2900. Just hooking the Trig to your logger's GPS won't hack it! Hopefully that situation will get better as 2020 approaches.

Or you can double up and get ADS-B out, and go up to 18,000...

Thank you FAA for a really botched system!

Kirk
66

Mode-S Veil, sigh clearly I meant mode C-Veil.

And now I have another ADS-B induced migraine...