A-10 in WWII??

"Eunometic" wrote in message
om...

The Mk103 had 140mm of penetration when firing tungsten cored
amunition from a FW190. From the faster jet it would have been more.



Of course not having any tungsten to spare this was
rather academic

Keith




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I recall GD sending out press releases stating that if the US had the F-16
in WWII the Nazis would have crumpled in two days.

What I couldn't figure out is why two days? As soon as any enemy saw
something that technologically advanced flying around they'd surrender.

--
The Raven
http://www.80scartoons.co.uk/batfinkquote.mp3
** President of the ozemail.* and uunet.* NG's
** since August 15th 2000.


"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
We've had a couple scenarios of aircraft going back in
time and speculation on what sort of effect they'd have.

I just saw a show on the A-10 Warthog with a top speed
of 420 mph. That's WWII fighter speeds (although I'm
not certain at what altitude).

Since an A-10 can carry something like 16,000 pounds of
weapons, at the speeds it flies, it would be one hell of
a WWII bomber. I'll bet even Art would ditch Willie in
a second to fly such a machine.

But what about as a fighter? Other than the extreme
ruggedness of the aircraft, would it have been any good
in fighter contests, especially in Europe, but in the
Pacific as well?

Seems the 30mm canon is a bit over kill for fighters.
Probably just load it up with a bunch of 20mm canons
in wings and as would fit in the nose.

It wouldn't be much good taking over mustang escort
duty since its range is only about 800 miles.

The aircraft seems very maneuverable, but I have no clue
how its roll rate, climb, dive and turn/stall performance
compare with a late WWII fighter of German or Japanese
pedigree.

Could an A-10 hold its own, or best, an Me 109 or FW 190?
An Oscar, Zero, Tony, Frank, whatever?

No doubt the marines in the Pacific would love the A-10
and the harrassed German ground transport would really
take a thrashing if this aircraft showed up. But would
the fighter opposition be quaking in their flight boots?


SMH

Forgot to mention that GD claimed only 2 x F-16s would have been
needed...........

--
The Raven
http://www.80scartoons.co.uk/batfinkquote.mp3
** President of the ozemail.* and uunet.* NG's
** since August 15th 2000.

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"Eunometic" wrote in message
om...

The Mk103 had 140mm of penetration when firing tungsten cored
amunition from a FW190. From the faster jet it would have been
more.



Of course not having any tungsten to spare this was
rather academic


Tungsten shortage was a serious problem for the Germans as was nickel
(for jet engines and used only for hardening the superior armor of the
Tiger other tanks like Panther didn't get this metal)

Nevertheless the Germans had small amounts of tungsten cored
ammunition available for the 75mm, 88mm for the Tiger and Panther and
AT guns. These rounds were only rarely available but were useful
for dealing with the heaviest soviet tanks. Early in the war, when
tungsten was a little more common, it was the only way they could
penetrate the T34 with their undersized for the task 50mm canon. (It
was called arrow head ammunition)

Tungsten was reserved for use in Anti Tank rounds for the 37mm and
30mm airborne use. The 30mm round having the same penetration as the
37mm round.
This was 110mm but more like 140 with the forward motion of the
aircraft.

The primary and most important use of tungsten was for hardening
machine tools.

In one of your posts you noted that the Germans used uranium as a
substitute for tungsten in hardening machine tools. I wonder if they
might have used it to harden ammunition? It may even have led to the
use of Uranium cores by serendipity. The Germans had their own
indigenous uranium mines.

"Eunometic" wrote in message
...

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"Eunometic" wrote in message
om...

The Mk103 had 140mm of penetration when firing tungsten cored
amunition from a FW190. From the faster jet it would have been
more.



Of course not having any tungsten to spare this was
rather academic


Tungsten shortage was a serious problem for the Germans as was nickel
(for jet engines and used only for hardening the superior armor of the
Tiger other tanks like Panther didn't get this metal)

Nevertheless the Germans had small amounts of tungsten cored
ammunition available for the 75mm, 88mm for the Tiger and Panther and
AT guns. These rounds were only rarely available but were useful
for dealing with the heaviest soviet tanks. Early in the war, when
tungsten was a little more common, it was the only way they could
penetrate the T34 with their undersized for the task 50mm canon. (It
was called arrow head ammunition)

Tungsten was reserved for use in Anti Tank rounds for the 37mm and
30mm airborne use. The 30mm round having the same penetration as the
37mm round.
This was 110mm but more like 140 with the forward motion of the
aircraft.

The primary and most important use of tungsten was for hardening
machine tools.

In one of your posts you noted that the Germans used uranium as a
substitute for tungsten in hardening machine tools. I wonder if they
might have used it to harden ammunition? It may even have led to the
use of Uranium cores by serendipity. The Germans had their own
indigenous uranium mines.



Its possible, there was certainly no shortage of Uranium
as there were huge stocks in Belgium imported for
the extraction of Radium

Keith




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"The Raven" wrote in message u...
I recall GD sending out press releases stating that if the US had the F-16
in WWII the Nazis would have crumpled in two days.

What I couldn't figure out is why two days? As soon as any enemy saw
something that technologically advanced flying around they'd surrender.


I expect that with 45 years of development as the well that the Nazis
might have come up with something a little more competitive than an
Me262 to take on the F16.

Note the best, if albeit most expensive F16, was the Japanese FS-X/F-2
which has in service an active array radar years before the the 24
seen on specialy equiped F15Ds.

It IS actually a stolen German design- a nameless Junkers Attack
Project which started in 1941.

Its true when I saw A-10 for the first time it had a look of German design.
Their R and D were looking in to many different designs. That's not to say
that they made it, and we stole it. Those aircraft design "ideas" were
around not only in Germany. And, as you may know "ideas" is not patent
able. One can't own an idea, however one can own specific method of
building things. If you give set of requirements to number of different
contractors, the end result comes up to be very similar.

Emilio.

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
nt (Krztalizer) wrote in message
...
Few people know this, but the A-10 is actually a stolen WWII German
design.
Sabotage at the factory and defeatist whiners kept the project from
flying
before VE Day, but in 20 years the original plans will be released by
the
military, clearly showing the RLM stamp in the upper left corner.

I know its true because I read it on Venik's website.

Gordon

It IS actually a stolen German design- a nameless Junkers Attack
Project which started in 1941.
From "Luftwaffe Secret Projects, Ground Attack & Special-Purpose
Aircraft" page 36:
" In mid-1941 the Development Department of the Junkerswerke in Dessau
commenced work on a project for a low-level and ground attack aircraft
as a replacement for the Hs 129. The project study involved a rather
plump-looking mid-wing aircraft with two wingroot-mounted turbojets.
According to works documentation, the turbojets were to have been two
Daimler-Benz 109-007 ZTL units which allowed a considerable increase
in performance at a reduced fuel consumption. Designed by Prof Dr-Ing
Karl Leist, head of the Abteilung Sondertriedwerk (Special Engines
Department) at the Daimler-Benz AG, the two-circuit or bypass
turbojets had a larger air intake and overall diameter than the
single-circuit BMW 003 and Jumo 004 turbojets.
Besides this new type of turbojet, strong armor plating was to have
been provided for the fuselage and powerplants. As a ground attack
aircraft, it was to have been equipped with four 30mm MK 103 and and
four 20mm MG 151/20 cannon. The undercarriage main wheels were to
retract forwards into the fuselage sides as shown in the three-view
drawing. As litle experience had been gathered with nosewheels which
for a long time had been rejected by the RLM as too " American", a
retractable pneumatically-sprung skid replaced the nosewheel.
The long gestation period of turbojet development at Daimler-Benz that
resulted in the first turbojet test-bed runs only in March 1943, led
to termination of the project. Several decades later, this project
served as the forerunner for the US Fairchild A-10A Thunderbolt (also
known as the Warthog) ground attack and low-level combat aircraft
which cannot deny its resemblence to the nameless Junkers ground
attack aircraft."

On the next page is pictured the A-10, a three-view of the Junkers
project, and both a schematic drawing and actual photo of the DB
109-007 turbojet on its engine test-bed. Accompanying note on the
A-10:

" A Fairchild A-10 Thunderbolt prototype. Its similarity to the
Junkers design scheme is UNMISTAKEABLE. The propulsion units, mounted
in lateral fuselage nacelles were two General Electric TF 34-GE 100
bypass turbojets..."

As for the A-10s revolver cannon- so what? The Germans had a range of
heavy Bordwaffe in development including the Duka 88. Even the A-10 in
WW2 would have been downed if hit in the engines with that baby!

Rob

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"Eunometic" wrote in message
...

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"Eunometic" wrote in message
om...

The Mk103 had 140mm of penetration when firing tungsten cored
amunition from a FW190. From the faster jet it would have been
more.



Of course not having any tungsten to spare this was
rather academic


Tungsten shortage was a serious problem for the Germans as was nickel
(for jet engines and used only for hardening the superior armor of the
Tiger other tanks like Panther didn't get this metal)

Nevertheless the Germans had small amounts of tungsten cored
ammunition available for the 75mm, 88mm for the Tiger and Panther and
AT guns. These rounds were only rarely available but were useful
for dealing with the heaviest soviet tanks. Early in the war, when
tungsten was a little more common, it was the only way they could
penetrate the T34 with their undersized for the task 50mm canon. (It
was called arrow head ammunition)

Tungsten was reserved for use in Anti Tank rounds for the 37mm and
30mm airborne use. The 30mm round having the same penetration as the
37mm round.
This was 110mm but more like 140 with the forward motion of the
aircraft.

The primary and most important use of tungsten was for hardening
machine tools.

In one of your posts you noted that the Germans used uranium as a
substitute for tungsten in hardening machine tools. I wonder if they
might have used it to harden ammunition? It may even have led to the
use of Uranium cores by serendipity. The Germans had their own
indigenous uranium mines.



Its possible, there was certainly no shortage of Uranium
as there were huge stocks in Belgium imported for
the extraction of Radium

About 1200 tons according to Richard Rhodes. That's not huge stocks on the
scale of munitions manufacture, about half a million projectiles worth. A
lot, but not huge.

If you give set of requirements to number of different
contractors, the end result comes up to be very similar.

You mean:
Space Shuttle --Buran
Concorde -- Tu-144
F-15 -- MiG-25
Northrop A-9 -- Szu-25
etc.

Spies 'r' us!

the A-10 is actually a stolen WWII German design.

Correction: a hungarian design from 1944.

Except for slightly W-shaped wing, the plane looked just like the A-10.
It was powered by two Jumo or BMW made 8kN turbines. It was 3/4th
completed, when the factory was overrun by the front. Supposedly the
plane's parts and drawings were captured by the USA and hauled overseas.

The three-view drawing of the plane was featured on the back cover of a
1976 copy of the hungarian monthly paper "Repules". It was quite unusual
for a communist state-run paper to feature a nazi plane at that time.