BRAC and Fort Rucker

"Fuzzy Footie" wrote in message
...
John Hart wrote:
"Fuzzy Footie" wrote in message
...

Kevin Brooks wrote:


"Fuzzy Footie" wrote in message
...


BamaJohn wrote:



Anyone have any information on how they feel Fort Rucker will fare in
the next round of Base Realignment and Closure. What are its strenths
and what are in weaknesses, and what are its major threats? Any
information is appreciated.

Fort Rucker will probably survive this round due to politics. (Yes, I
know the BRAC is supposed to be non-political.)

If the location of the Army Flight Training Center were to be made on
a
strictly military needs basis, the Aviation Center would be moved to
Fort Irwin. Between the NTC and Edwards AFB, there are about 950,000
acres of desert and mountains for maneuver.


Is putting new trainee pilots into a high/hot situation from the outset
really advisable? Not to mention the folks running the NTC would

probably

just as soon not have to worry about all of those TH-67's whirling

around

while they are trying to do serious work like running a BLUEFOR BCT

through

the wringer...

Brooks



--
Fuzz

Hey! Evolution in action. While Fort Irwin is probably not the best
climate or altitude to learn, for the foreseeable future that's the
climate they will be flying in. There is enough acreage that they could
keep to propeller heads away from the maneuver forces.

Of course, Forts Campbell, Bragg or Benning have much more 'back' post
area for flight training without flying trainees over civilian
neighborhoods.

--
Fuzz





I see you've never been trained as a pilot. Hell, Texas ain't big
enough to
train pilots in! Been there and done that, got the T-shirt, and wore it
out
completely!



Glad to hear it, but what's that got to do with the small on post flight
area for first phase trainees at Fort Rucker? The post has worked for
years in trying to gain more restricted air space for training.

--
Fuzz

That's the point. It ain't all done in a small area in the first phase. I
went through rotary wing primary training in Ft Woters, TX myself, then
after my first tour in 'Nam, I worked there three years as a primary flight
instructor. To handle 200 or 300 primary students, a helicopter primary
school uses up a hell of a lot more airspace than is available at any post
with an active arty impact area. Got to keep'em clear of the GT line, out
of the impact area, and completely away from such things as parachute drops,
not to mention out of commercial air traffic, and seperated from each other.
Might be able to do all that if you draw a 250 - 300 mile radius around a
given place, and can control ALL the airspace from the surface upward.

John Hart wrote:
"Fuzzy Footie" wrote in message
...


Glad to hear it, but what's that got to do with the small on post flight
area for first phase trainees at Fort Rucker? The post has worked for
years in trying to gain more restricted air space for training.

--
Fuzz


That's the point. It ain't all done in a small area in the first phase. I
went through rotary wing primary training in Ft Woters, TX myself, then
after my first tour in 'Nam, I worked there three years as a primary flight
instructor. To handle 200 or 300 primary students, a helicopter primary
school uses up a hell of a lot more airspace than is available at any post
with an active arty impact area. Got to keep'em clear of the GT line, out
of the impact area, and completely away from such things as parachute drops,
not to mention out of commercial air traffic, and seperated from each other.
Might be able to do all that if you draw a 250 - 300 mile radius around a
given place, and can control ALL the airspace from the surface upward.



Understood. It sounds like Fort Irwin is the place. Of course, all
those new WO's and Eltees would hate it being so far from Barstow. Of
course, they could make thunder runs to Las Vegas on the weekends.

It is clear there is no easy answer. Therefore, as the government is
wont to do, primary rotor wing training will stay at Rucker, probably
until the end of time.

--
Fuzz

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 23:55:06 GMT, "John Hart"
wrote:

That's the point. It ain't all done in a small area in the first phase. I
went through rotary wing primary training in Ft Woters, TX myself, then
after my first tour in 'Nam, I worked there three years as a primary flight
instructor. To handle 200 or 300 primary students, a helicopter primary
school uses up a hell of a lot more airspace than is available at any post
with an active arty impact area. Got to keep'em clear of the GT line, out
of the impact area, and completely away from such things as parachute drops,
not to mention out of commercial air traffic, and seperated from each other.
Might be able to do all that if you draw a 250 - 300 mile radius around a
given place, and can control ALL the airspace from the surface upward.


I should hope you would be able to keep them separated - a cylindrical
airspace block 3 miles high and 600 miles across contains 848,230
cubic miles of airspace and then some. That comes out to 2800+ cubic
miles of airspace per student at a student load of 300, assuming one
student per aircraft. Think that's enough separation?

BTW, where in the U.S. do you think that you are going to be able to
obtain an area of low-altitude airspace that is 500-600 miles in
diameter and get full control of it? Sounds like a primary flight
instructor's wet dream but it probably ain't gonna happen.

John Hairell )
former Army ATCS (Rucker, Hood, Korea)

Fuzzy Footie wrote:

John Hart wrote:

"Fuzzy Footie" wrote in message
...


Glad to hear it, but what's that got to do with the small on post flight
area for first phase trainees at Fort Rucker? The post has worked for
years in trying to gain more restricted air space for training.

--
Fuzz



That's the point. It ain't all done in a small area in the first
phase. I
went through rotary wing primary training in Ft Woters, TX myself, then
after my first tour in 'Nam, I worked there three years as a primary
flight
instructor. To handle 200 or 300 primary students, a helicopter primary
school uses up a hell of a lot more airspace than is available at any
post
with an active arty impact area. Got to keep'em clear of the GT line,
out
of the impact area, and completely away from such things as parachute
drops,
not to mention out of commercial air traffic, and seperated from each
other.
Might be able to do all that if you draw a 250 - 300 mile radius around a
given place, and can control ALL the airspace from the surface upward.



Understood. It sounds like Fort Irwin is the place. Of course, all
those new WO's and Eltees would hate it being so far from Barstow. Of
course, they could make thunder runs to Las Vegas on the weekends.

It is clear there is no easy answer. Therefore, as the government is
wont to do, primary rotor wing training will stay at Rucker, probably
until the end of time.

--
Fuzz

I hear Yuma Proving Ground is on the closing list. Lots of room there
for flight training. A little toasty in summer.
LZ

Well, don't know what the hotshots are going to do, but I suspect it has a
lot more to do with "pork" than suitability of a particular geographical
area. A geographical area has little influence on primary flight training,
actually. The so-called "dangers" to a civilian populace attributed to
flight training is virtually non-existent. Certainly, once in a while, a
student pilot will be involved in some sort of a mishap thet scares the
bejesus out of some civilians, but in actuality, very, very few are actually
injured or killed.





Understood. It sounds like Fort Irwin is the place. Of course, all
those new WO's and Eltees would hate it being so far from Barstow. Of
course, they could make thunder runs to Las Vegas on the weekends.

It is clear there is no easy answer. Therefore, as the government is
wont to do, primary rotor wing training will stay at Rucker, probably
until the end of time.

--
Fuzz

"Lone Haranguer" wrote in message
...
Fuzzy Footie wrote:

John Hart wrote:

"Fuzzy Footie" wrote in message
...


Glad to hear it, but what's that got to do with the small on post
flight
area for first phase trainees at Fort Rucker? The post has worked for
years in trying to gain more restricted air space for training.

--
Fuzz



That's the point. It ain't all done in a small area in the first
phase. I
went through rotary wing primary training in Ft Woters, TX myself, then
after my first tour in 'Nam, I worked there three years as a primary
flight
instructor. To handle 200 or 300 primary students, a helicopter
primary
school uses up a hell of a lot more airspace than is available at any
post
with an active arty impact area. Got to keep'em clear of the GT line,
out
of the impact area, and completely away from such things as parachute
drops,
not to mention out of commercial air traffic, and seperated from each
other.
Might be able to do all that if you draw a 250 - 300 mile radius around
a
given place, and can control ALL the airspace from the surface upward.



Understood. It sounds like Fort Irwin is the place. Of course, all
those new WO's and Eltees would hate it being so far from Barstow. Of
course, they could make thunder runs to Las Vegas on the weekends.

It is clear there is no easy answer. Therefore, as the government is
wont to do, primary rotor wing training will stay at Rucker, probably
until the end of time.

--
Fuzz

I hear Yuma Proving Ground is on the closing list. Lots of room there
for flight training. A little toasty in summer.
LZ


Yes. However, it's a little too close to the southern international
boundry. Might give rise to an international incident or two, should a
student pilot inadvertantly meander to the south of the line!

"John Hart" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Lone Haranguer" wrote in message
...
Fuzzy Footie wrote:

John Hart wrote:

"Fuzzy Footie" wrote in message
...


Glad to hear it, but what's that got to do with the small on post
flight
area for first phase trainees at Fort Rucker? The post has worked
for
years in trying to gain more restricted air space for training.

--
Fuzz



That's the point. It ain't all done in a small area in the first
phase. I
went through rotary wing primary training in Ft Woters, TX myself,
then
after my first tour in 'Nam, I worked there three years as a primary
flight
instructor. To handle 200 or 300 primary students, a helicopter
primary
school uses up a hell of a lot more airspace than is available at any
post
with an active arty impact area. Got to keep'em clear of the GT
line,
out
of the impact area, and completely away from such things as parachute
drops,
not to mention out of commercial air traffic, and seperated from each
other.
Might be able to do all that if you draw a 250 - 300 mile radius
around
a
given place, and can control ALL the airspace from the surface
upward.



Understood. It sounds like Fort Irwin is the place. Of course, all
those new WO's and Eltees would hate it being so far from Barstow. Of
course, they could make thunder runs to Las Vegas on the weekends.

It is clear there is no easy answer. Therefore, as the government is
wont to do, primary rotor wing training will stay at Rucker, probably
until the end of time.

--
Fuzz

I hear Yuma Proving Ground is on the closing list. Lots of room there
for flight training. A little toasty in summer.
LZ


Yes. However, it's a little too close to the southern international
boundry. Might give rise to an international incident or two, should a
student pilot inadvertantly meander to the south of the line!

I recall my brother relating a story of one of his classmates (this would
have been about 1970) getting a bit turned around on a flight and finally
landing his TH-55 and walking to a nearby farmhouse to ask where the heck he
was; he supposedly did so still wearing his helmet with the visor down...one
can only wonder what the lady's reaction to that sight was.

Brooks

Kevin Brooks wrote:

"John Hart" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Lone Haranguer" wrote in message
...

Fuzzy Footie wrote:


John Hart wrote:


"Fuzzy Footie" wrote in message
...


Glad to hear it, but what's that got to do with the small on post

flight

area for first phase trainees at Fort Rucker? The post has worked

for

years in trying to gain more restricted air space for training.

--
Fuzz



That's the point. It ain't all done in a small area in the first
phase. I
went through rotary wing primary training in Ft Woters, TX myself,

then

after my first tour in 'Nam, I worked there three years as a primary
flight
instructor. To handle 200 or 300 primary students, a helicopter

primary

school uses up a hell of a lot more airspace than is available at any
post
with an active arty impact area. Got to keep'em clear of the GT

line,

out
of the impact area, and completely away from such things as parachute
drops,
not to mention out of commercial air traffic, and seperated from each
other.
Might be able to do all that if you draw a 250 - 300 mile radius

around

a

given place, and can control ALL the airspace from the surface

upward.


Understood. It sounds like Fort Irwin is the place. Of course, all
those new WO's and Eltees would hate it being so far from Barstow. Of
course, they could make thunder runs to Las Vegas on the weekends.

It is clear there is no easy answer. Therefore, as the government is
wont to do, primary rotor wing training will stay at Rucker, probably
until the end of time.

--
Fuzz

I hear Yuma Proving Ground is on the closing list. Lots of room there
for flight training. A little toasty in summer.
LZ


Yes. However, it's a little too close to the southern international
boundry. Might give rise to an international incident or two, should a
student pilot inadvertantly meander to the south of the line!


I recall my brother relating a story of one of his classmates (this would
have been about 1970) getting a bit turned around on a flight and finally
landing his TH-55 and walking to a nearby farmhouse to ask where the heck he
was; he supposedly did so still wearing his helmet with the visor down...one
can only wonder what the lady's reaction to that sight was.

Brooks

In Germany the Army pilots used "roadmap navigation". They just got low
enough to read the name of the town posted on the outskirts.

They didn't have water towers like ours.
LZ

"Lone Haranguer" wrote in message
...
In Germany the Army pilots used "roadmap navigation". They just got low
enough to read the name of the town posted on the outskirts.

They didn't have water towers like ours.
LZ


Not only in Germany, but all over the world where I have been stationed and
flew helicopters. Nothing like having a positive fix on your location.
John Hart

John Hart wrote in response to:

In Germany the Army pilots used "roadmap navigation". They just got low
enough to read the name of the town posted on the outskirts.

the following:
Not only in Germany, but all over the world where I have been stationed and
flew helicopters. Nothing like having a positive fix on your location.

Doesn't work well in the central US, especially the Dakotas, Nebraska, Kansas,
Oklahoma. All the small towns are named "Co-Op"

"Hang a right at the big tombstone on top of the cemetary hill, your target is
the warehouse one block north of the Dairy Queen. Exit the target area over the
baseball diamond...."
honest to Gawd quote from a TacEval briefing, circa 1969, of course their chart
and flight plan were outstanding

oxmoron1
MFE