How hard is a Diamant to assemble?

The FFA 16.5 Diamant was the first "All plastic" aircraft, ie, all man
made composite structure. There is no balsa, or any wood anywhere in
the ship, and metal parts are very limited to control system and
gear. It is a very elegant design for it's day, but had serious
quality problems during manufacture of the composite parts.

The wing and the ship is very heavy by current standards, but nothing
the right set of dollies won't fix. By dollies I mean two sawhorses
and a root dolly, Any two piece wing is a cinch to rig if you balance
the wing weight on sawhorses or dollies and lower the fuse cradle with
an electric jack.

Once you buy one, you will probably won't be able to sell it. if a
ship was considered a dog 25 years ago it does not get a pedigree
because it got older. However, it flies great and if you have to buy
an albatross, you could do worse. if you are a engineering student on
a budget and want to trade even for say, a Cherokee, it would be a
great choice.

Educate yourself with all the AD's and SB's, and maintenance records,
and definitely fly before you buy. Reclining seat position is a
problem for some folks, as is the canopy mechanism. Any oddball 40
year old ship will have problems, if one is buying it because the
price is right you are going to be in for a rude surprise.

MM
Former owner, D 16.5 s/n 44

Hmmmmm.
I own (or should I say my Son's now own as they generally fly it now days
as I have another toy to play with) a Diamant 17.2
It started life as a 16.5 and was the "first Glass Glider" in Australia
and first flew in Australia in November 1967. Serial number 018.
It was first owned by Malcolm Jinx who went on to win the nationals in it
that year and the following 2 years against Open Libelle's and Kestrel
17's.
In 1968 it had 'Factory" wing tip extensions fitted taking it to
17.2mts.
I have owned the aircraft since 1981 and love the old girl. My best flight
in it was 720kms and cut short due to a late start and failing conditions.
Not bad for an old bird.
Soars like wood and cruises like glass.
Gets you home at the end of the day when other ships can't stay up. Long
legs and great soaring.

Have noted the comments on the rigging.
Our wings are 100kgs each and the fuse is 101kgs.
The wings are like rigging a Twin Astir really. Yep they are heavy.
Some have mentioned right wing first but I want to point out the big
advantage is when it is plugged in, the stub pin sticks out and you can
see it to be able to guide the left wing onto it rather than the reverse
where it is then blind. I find with a couple of helpers it is over in
about 5 mins if you know what you are doing.

As far as maintenance goes I don't understand the suggestion there might
be a problem. From my perspective there is only 1 recurring AD (Elevator
Push Rod Fork) and an easy inspection.
The access holes in the wing ( six in each) make it one of the easiest
gliders I have ever found for wing inspection and maintenance of control
system bearings.
I find it a breeze compared to many aircraft I work on.

Value wise depends on what you pay of course. I tired to sell it some
years ago when I upgraded. I couldn't get a decent offer so thought blow
it the boys can have it. When the second went Solo I did the annual and
got it back in the air. For both of them it was their second Solo machine.
It is that easy to fly. The youngest got into it at 15. Of course they were
groomed for it thus prepared but still it is easy. No vices to speak of.
With an LS4, LS7 and Discus in the club fleet they are still happy to fly
the Diamant.
It is unusal but I wouldn't call it a Dog.

If your friend can get into it at a reasonable price and get a lot of use
out of it good on him. For me I reckon I got my moneys worth years ago
(gold and diamond) and now the next generation can. I don't count the
cost. Comes down to perspective.
I reckon it's good for 850k over here and reckon Son number 2 might well
prove me right one day.
Cheers Nige.







At 04:53 27 June 2009, wrote:


The FFA 16.5 Diamant was the first "All plastic" aircraft, ie, all man
made composite structure. There is no balsa, or any wood anywhere in
the ship, and metal parts are very limited to control system and
gear. It is a very elegant design for it's day, but had serious
quality problems during manufacture of the composite parts.

The wing and the ship is very heavy by current standards, but nothing
the right set of dollies won't fix. By dollies I mean two sawhorses
and a root dolly, Any two piece wing is a cinch to rig if you balance
the wing weight on sawhorses or dollies and lower the fuse cradle with
an electric jack.

Once you buy one, you will probably won't be able to sell it. if a
ship was considered a dog 25 years ago it does not get a pedigree
because it got older. However, it flies great and if you have to buy
an albatross, you could do worse. if you are a engineering student on
a budget and want to trade even for say, a Cherokee, it would be a
great choice.

Educate yourself with all the AD's and SB's, and maintenance records,
and definitely fly before you buy. Reclining seat position is a
problem for some folks, as is the canopy mechanism. Any oddball 40
year old ship will have problems, if one is buying it because the
price is right you are going to be in for a rude surprise.

MM
Former owner, D 16.5 s/n 44

On Jun 26, 6:17 am, Spam wrote:
A friend of mine is considering buying a diamant. He was told it's
very hard to rig. He's not a member of this group so I am asking for
him.

Anyone ever tried to assemble one? Or dis-assemble one?

Others have pretty well answered this already...but since I went to
the
trouble of generating this, and my news server was balking earlier,
here's one last attempt to send it!
- - - - - -

I've helped rig all 3 models (though not since the 1980's), including
an
extended-span former-18-meter version.

Rigging varies by the model/span. Disassembly of any model is (or
should
be!) a non-issue.

The 15-meter HBV model uses Libelle (301, I seem to recall)
wings, and rigs like a Libelle, except the Diamant's enclosed fuselage
aft of the canopy, covers what is open and top-accessible beneath
Libelles' removable canopy, and in that sense HBV rigging is less easy
than Libelle rigging. IOW, HBV rigging is just like almost all the
rest
of the 15-meter-span fiberglass fleet out there.

The 16.5 and 18-meter Diamants have (considerably) heavier, single-
piece
wings, which get no lighter if their span has been increased (a not-
rare
modification). Other than the weight at the tip, they never seemed
abbie-normally difficult to rig from this tip-holder's perspective.

As with all ships, alignment matters. If the person at the root
is impatient, unskilled, or - by far the worst! - uninterested in
gaining the (easy-to-gain) visual assessment skills required to
achieve
visual alignment, my Pythonesque advice is: Run Away!!! Run Away!!!
Two
wing stands may be a definite asset to the newer owner, in order to
allow the tip person to rest while the owner ascends the new-owner
alignment & assessment learning curve.

I've yet to encounter a difficult-to-rig ship...IF the root guy
understands alignment!!! For the record, THE worst assembly I was ever
involved in (a half-hour daymare) was a 15-meter glass ship (G-102),
rigged - and evidently aided by! - some absolute idiots. By the time
this tip holder figured this out, it was too late*...

Regards,
Bob - *never again - W.

Yes, on the ADs comments earlier, ... check very carefully that the two
key ADs on the "wing/spar bonding check" and the "spar stub
reinforcement" have been completed (needed for most Diamant models,
except for Diamant18 in the USA which is classed experimental, so ADs are
not mandatory ???).

Yes, it may be hard to resell later, I guess it depends on the price.
Maintenance cost is virtually zero, if flys really well, but yes, it is a
bit odd, and the wings are quite heavy. Probably way over-engineered in
many repsects, and to stop flutter (I believe) lots of lead was added to
the flaps and/oe ailerons.

For me, I got lots or performance and hours of flying at a very low
price. A low hull value keeps the insurance cost down as well? I did see
a "Diamant wanted" ad on this site a year or two ago, but wasn't
tempted to sell then. May be in a few years if I am flushed with cash.

David.
Diamant 18 #33, UK.

At 15:42 27 June 2009, wrote:
On Jun 26, 6:17 am, Spam wrote:
A friend of mine is considering buying a diamant. He was told it's
very hard to rig. He's not a member of this group so I am asking for
him.

Anyone ever tried to assemble one? Or dis-assemble one?

Others have pretty well answered this already...but since I went to
the
trouble of generating this, and my news server was balking earlier,
here's one last attempt to send it!
- - - - - -

I've helped rig all 3 models (though not since the 1980's), including
an
extended-span former-18-meter version.

Rigging varies by the model/span. Disassembly of any model is (or
should
be!) a non-issue.

The 15-meter HBV model uses Libelle (301, I seem to recall)
wings, and rigs like a Libelle, except the Diamant's enclosed fuselage
aft of the canopy, covers what is open and top-accessible beneath
Libelles' removable canopy, and in that sense HBV rigging is less easy
than Libelle rigging. IOW, HBV rigging is just like almost all the
rest
of the 15-meter-span fiberglass fleet out there.

The 16.5 and 18-meter Diamants have (considerably) heavier, single-
piece
wings, which get no lighter if their span has been increased (a not-
rare
modification). Other than the weight at the tip, they never seemed
abbie-normally difficult to rig from this tip-holder's perspective.

As with all ships, alignment matters. If the person at the root
is impatient, unskilled, or - by far the worst! - uninterested in
gaining the (easy-to-gain) visual assessment skills required to
achieve
visual alignment, my Pythonesque advice is: Run Away!!! Run Away!!!
Two
wing stands may be a definite asset to the newer owner, in order to
allow the tip person to rest while the owner ascends the new-owner
alignment & assessment learning curve.

I've yet to encounter a difficult-to-rig ship...IF the root guy
understands alignment!!! For the record, THE worst assembly I was ever
involved in (a half-hour daymare) was a 15-meter glass ship (G-102),
rigged - and evidently aided by! - some absolute idiots. By the time
this tip holder figured this out, it was too late*...

Regards,
Bob - *never again - W.

OK, someone else started it. Here's my worst-ever rigging
story...involving a Diamant. I was just a kid, maybe 14 or 15, and one
of my dad's friends took delivery of a new 16.5. We headed up to the
airport one morning to help him rig it for the first flight. Only one
wingstand. Homemade trailer so no fuselage stand. But there were at
least 4 of us so how bad could it be?

The metal fittings were all covered with some kind of preservative
(Cosmoline?) to inhibit rust on the voyage over from Europe. So we
cleaned that off as best we could (we were in a hurry) and slapped the
wings on. Really heavy, but they went on quickly. But the main pin
wouldn't go in.

Remove wings, stare at everything, insert wings, push, shove, groan,
sweat. It was July, I believe, in Indiana...in full sun...in midday.
Hot. Repeat at least a dozen times. Finally we laid the wings down on
the grass and slid them together without the fuselage. Yup, the pin
went in fine. Nothing wrong there. By now we were convinced it was
just a matter of "persuasion". So back on to the fuselage with the
wings. The main pin had a threaded hole into which you inserted a long
T-shaped handle just for assembly. So two of us got on the T handle
and pushed like crazy. There may have been a hammer involved but I've
repressed that memory. Simultaneously we put our full strength into
rotating the handle, trying to twist the pin into place...and twisted
the handle right off, shearing it where it inserted into the main pin.

Now the main pin was part way in with no good way of removing it. At
that point we gave up. Somehow we propped up the other wingtip
temporarily (hood of a car?). The owner called a couple of mechanics
from his company and we took a well-deserved break. They arrived about
90 minutes later, drilled out the stub of the handle from the pin,
rethreaded it, extracted the pin, and watched as we removed the wings.
Their boss was there so they couldn't say what they really thought,
but the looks were enough. Then we watched as they cleaned off the
REST of the rust inhibitor from all the fittings and made up a new
handle. Late that afternoon, the big ship went together like a dream.
I still have a 35 mm slide or two from that first flight just before
sunset.

It's amazing how many rules we broke that day, which far surpassed in
hours, frustration, and effort the nearly one hour my family spent in
the pouring rain in a plowed field trying to remove the wings from my
Dad's 1-23...before he remembered he hadn't disconnected the ailerons.
But the lessons learned have been valuable my entire soaring
career.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
USA

Chip Bearden wrote:
OK, someone else started it. Here's my worst-ever rigging
story...involving a Diamant. I was just a kid, maybe 14 or 15, and one
of my dad's friends took delivery of a new 16.5. We headed up to the
airport one morning to help him rig it for the first flight. Only one
wingstand. Homemade trailer so no fuselage stand. But there were at
least 4 of us so how bad could it be?

The metal fittings were all covered with some kind of preservative
(Cosmoline?) to inhibit rust on the voyage over from Europe. So we
cleaned that off as best we could (we were in a hurry) and slapped the
wings on. Really heavy, but they went on quickly. But the main pin
wouldn't go in.

Remove wings, stare at everything, insert wings, push, shove, groan,
sweat. It was July, I believe, in Indiana...in full sun...in midday.
Hot. Repeat at least a dozen times. Finally we laid the wings down on
the grass and slid them together without the fuselage. Yup, the pin
went in fine. Nothing wrong there. By now we were convinced it was
just a matter of "persuasion". So back on to the fuselage with the
wings. The main pin had a threaded hole into which you inserted a long
T-shaped handle just for assembly. So two of us got on the T handle
and pushed like crazy. There may have been a hammer involved but I've
repressed that memory. Simultaneously we put our full strength into
rotating the handle, trying to twist the pin into place...and twisted
the handle right off, shearing it where it inserted into the main pin.

Now the main pin was part way in with no good way of removing it. At
that point we gave up. Somehow we propped up the other wingtip
temporarily (hood of a car?). The owner called a couple of mechanics
from his company and we took a well-deserved break. They arrived about
90 minutes later, drilled out the stub of the handle from the pin,
rethreaded it, extracted the pin, and watched as we removed the wings.
Their boss was there so they couldn't say what they really thought,
but the looks were enough. Then we watched as they cleaned off the
REST of the rust inhibitor from all the fittings and made up a new
handle. Late that afternoon, the big ship went together like a dream.
I still have a 35 mm slide or two from that first flight just before
sunset.

It's amazing how many rules we broke that day, which far surpassed in
hours, frustration, and effort the nearly one hour my family spent in
the pouring rain in a plowed field trying to remove the wings from my
Dad's 1-23...before he remembered he hadn't disconnected the ailerons.
But the lessons learned have been valuable my entire soaring
career.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
USA


Thanks for that Chip. Your stories remind of the situation with the
LAK-12. Assembling the -12 is matter of knowledge, finesse, and proper
rigging aids. Done correctly the -12 goes together easily and without
strain. I assemble mine by myself. Even though each panel weighs 230
pounds one never comes close to lifting that: the wing dolly carries the
weight. Done incorrectly all of the rumours about the -12 seem to be
true (i.e., it takes 10 strong men, plenty of sledge hammers, and at
least 12 hours of sweaty labor by all). I have done it both incorrectly
(no hammers though) and correctly. There is a world of difference.
Disassembly is trivial and very much like taking apart a 15 meter
because no finesse is required. Again the wing dolly, not the human,
carries the weight - just like for a 15 meter wing.

Regards,

-Doug

Spam wrote:
A friend of mine is considering buying a diamant. He was told it's
very hard to rig. He's not a member of this group so I am asking for
him.

Anyone ever tried to assemble one? Or dis-assemble one?


My first glider was a Diamant 16.5 with the wings extended to 17.2M, I
believe. The wings are heavy and it would be unreasonable to ask someone
to hold the tip up for more that a minute or so. Therefore multiple
adjustable wing stands are vital. Many have stated that they go together
easily when everything is lined up properly. Well heck yeah...but
achieving that alignment in a reasonable time is the problem. Rigging
this glider is definitely its weak point and having strong, patient crew
people and a good support system is important. Also consider the
derigging effort in a freshly plowed field

It's easy to fly, climbs great and landing it is easy. One
caveat...don't fly it while wearing white shoes.

Paul
ZZ

On Friday, June 26, 2009 at 1:17:18 PM UTC+1, Spam wrote:
A friend of mine is considering buying a diamant. He was told it's
very hard to rig. He's not a member of this group so I am asking for
him.

Anyone ever tried to assemble one? Or dis-assemble one?

i have a dimant 18 i made my own rigging aid 10min at most all comments are good its a lovely old ship 330km in ireland had 5 outlandings one wheel up no problems dg 808c 142000 euros dimant 12000adu

As a bit of advice - if you seriously consider buying *any* glider, be
sure to get instruction from the seller on techniques for rigging and
derigging. Sure, some are quite easy, but others are not so obvious.
Considering my LAK-17a, I would not be able to rig it were it not for
the advice received from the previous owner.

Good luck in your quest!

Dan

On 7/5/2015 5:21 AM, wrote:
On Friday, June 26, 2009 at 1:17:18 PM UTC+1, Spam wrote:
A friend of mine is considering buying a diamant. He was told it's
very hard to rig. He's not a member of this group so I am asking for
him.

Anyone ever tried to assemble one? Or dis-assemble one?
i have a dimant 18 i made my own rigging aid 10min at most all comments are good its a lovely old ship 330km in ireland had 5 outlandings one wheel up no problems dg 808c 142000 euros dimant 12000adu

--
Dan Marotta