Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy casualties.

Subject: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy casualties.
From: (B2431)
Date: 8/13/2004 5:19 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

More importantly a true professional LEARNS from history and knows how to
apply
those lessons.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

That may be true on the strategic level. But sitting in the nose of a bomb I
learned from my training and my experience what I had to do and how fast I had
to do it. I can't think of a history book that would have helped me in that
situation. Can you?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy casualties.
From: (B2431)
Date: 8/13/2004 5:19 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

More importantly a true professional LEARNS from history and knows how
to
apply
those lessons.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

That may be true on the strategic level. But sitting in the nose of a
bomb I
learned from my training and my experience what I had to do and how fast
I had
to do it. I can't think of a history book that would have helped me in
that
situation. Can you?

Probably not, although some historic fiction seriously might. Today, of
course, simulator training and large exercises would have helped.

My concern, Art, is recognizing that the strategic and the tactical both
are necessary. If your group took massive casualties attacking
unimportant bridges, how would that have contributed to victory? Think
of the Battle of Britain -- what if the Luftwaffe had spent another week
or two on air defense suppression rather than city bombing?

Subject: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy casualties.
From: Howard Berkowitz
Date: 8/13/2004 11:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy casualties.
From: (B2431)
Date: 8/13/2004 5:19 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

More importantly a true professional LEARNS from history and knows how
to
apply
those lessons.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

That may be true on the strategic level. But sitting in the nose of a
bomb I
learned from my training and my experience what I had to do and how fast
I had
to do it. I can't think of a history book that would have helped me in
that
situation. Can you?

Probably not, although some historic fiction seriously might. Today, of
course, simulator training and large exercises would have helped.

My concern, Art, is recognizing that the strategic and the tactical both
are necessary. If your group took massive casualties attacking
unimportant bridges, how would that have contributed to victory? Think
of the Battle of Britain -- what if the Luftwaffe had spent another week
or two on air defense suppression rather than city bombing?



These are not concerns for the man doing the fighting. Let me tell you what my
war was like. We have just reached the I.P. and turned on the bomb run. I have
sent power to the bomb panel, intervelometer and bombays. I have opened the
bomb bay doors an lined up and locked in the Norden head and uncaged my gyro.
A sudden burst of flack rocks Willie and tumbles my gyro. My sight is blacked
out and I am only 30 seconds away from bombs away and helpless. I fight with
the gimble rings to erect the gyro, 25 seconds to go, No luck yet, I keep
workimg the gimble rings. Damned gyro won't stand up and get caged. What do I
do now Howard? How about I read the fine 6 volime set on the Punic wars? Think
that wil help me? Or I can call Kevin or Swartz. They read a lot of books so
they can surely help me now. I don't htink so. We go to war with our training,
our experience and our natural instincts and abilities like hand-eye
co-oridanation, depth percption and reaction time. Books are objects of
intersts for after the war been done , fought and won or lost. Or books are
really great for wannabees to quote to each other.Or for historians to study
long after the fact.. But when it comes to fighting, they aren't much help in
the heat if battle. But books are the only excuse the wanabees have for living.
A wannabee can always say that an experienced combat veteran wll know nothing
because he hasn't read a particular book. And the wannabee knows it all because
has read that book. I have never seen a book that would help me get that gyro
up and cage in the remaining ten seconds..And from where I sat, that is what
the war was all about. Maybe you can read about it in a book.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy casualties.
From: Howard Berkowitz
Date: 8/13/2004 11:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy
casualties.
From: (B2431)
Date: 8/13/2004 5:19 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

More importantly a true professional LEARNS from history and knows how
to
apply
those lessons.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

That may be true on the strategic level. But sitting in the nose of a
bomb I
learned from my training and my experience what I had to do and how
fast
I had
to do it. I can't think of a history book that would have helped me in
that
situation. Can you?

Probably not, although some historic fiction seriously might. Today, of
course, simulator training and large exercises would have helped.

My concern, Art, is recognizing that the strategic and the tactical both
are necessary. If your group took massive casualties attacking
unimportant bridges, how would that have contributed to victory? Think
of the Battle of Britain -- what if the Luftwaffe had spent another week
or two on air defense suppression rather than city bombing?



These are not concerns for the man doing the fighting. Let me tell you
what my
war was like. We have just reached the I.P. and turned on the bomb run. I
have
sent power to the bomb panel, intervelometer and bombays. I have opened
the
bomb bay doors an lined up and locked in the Norden head and uncaged my
gyro.
A sudden burst of flack rocks Willie and tumbles my gyro. My sight is
blacked
out and I am only 30 seconds away from bombs away and helpless. I fight
with
the gimble rings to erect the gyro, 25 seconds to go, No luck yet, I
keep
workimg the gimble rings. Damned gyro won't stand up and get caged. What
do I
do now Howard? How about I read the fine 6 volime set on the Punic wars?
Think
that wil help me? Or I can call Kevin or Swartz. They read a lot of books
so
they can surely help me now. I don't htink so. We go to war with our
training,
our experience and our natural instincts and abilities like hand-eye
co-oridanation, depth percption and reaction time. Books are objects of
intersts for after the war been done , fought and won or lost. Or books
are
really great for wannabees to quote to each other.Or for historians to
study
long after the fact.. But when it comes to fighting, they aren't much help
in
the heat if battle. But books are the only excuse the wanabees have for
living.
A wannabee can always say that an experienced combat veteran wll know
nothing
because he hasn't read a particular book. And the wannabee knows it all
because
has read that book. I have never seen a book that would help me get that
gyro
up and cage in the remaining ten seconds..And from where I sat, that is
what
the war was all about. Maybe you can read about it in a book.

Is that why you are so down on books? Nobody has written about *you* and
your personal "exploits" (except you yourself, ad nauseum, of course)? It is
truly rare to find a man who so fervently decries the value of
reading...oddly enough, though, you seem to think that *everyone* should not
only read, but take as gospel, your own self-serving writings?! Odd
juxtaposition you pose there in regards to the worth of the written
word--books (which are often well researched by more than one scholar and
their claims backed by solid evidence) are worthless, but Art's own
(unverified, and too often questionable to say the least) website and usenet
ramblings are somehow the stuff that legends are made of? Need to work on
your logic there....

Brooks





Arthur Kramer

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy casualties.
From: Howard Berkowitz
Date: 8/13/2004 11:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Fierce battles in Najab, Helicopter lost. Heavy
casualties.
From: (B2431)
Date: 8/13/2004 5:19 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

More importantly a true professional LEARNS from history and knows
how
to
apply
those lessons.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

That may be true on the strategic level. But sitting in the nose of a
bomb I
learned from my training and my experience what I had to do and how
fast
I had
to do it. I can't think of a history book that would have helped me in
that
situation. Can you?

Probably not, although some historic fiction seriously might. Today, of
course, simulator training and large exercises would have helped.

My concern, Art, is recognizing that the strategic and the tactical both
are necessary. If your group took massive casualties attacking
unimportant bridges, how would that have contributed to victory? Think
of the Battle of Britain -- what if the Luftwaffe had spent another week
or two on air defense suppression rather than city bombing?



These are not concerns for the man doing the fighting. Let me tell you
what my
war was like.

No, Art. The issue that leads to the survival of countries is achieving
victory in the war. Are you really unable to realize that others not at
the pointy end have a great deal to do with success or victory?

Yes, it's worthwhile to know the combat experience. But I am unwilling
to examine that as the ONLY aspect of warfare.

I enjoy your accounts as long as there's an underlying respect for
everyone who contributes -- including, incidentally, former combat crew
that were assigned to key staff jobs, and then ordered not to engage in
combat because they now knew information that COULD NOT be jeopardized
by captu cryptanalysis, the datas and places of invasions, special
weapons, etc.

We have just reached the I.P. and turned on the bomb run. I
have
sent power to the bomb panel, intervelometer and bombays. I have opened
the
bomb bay doors an lined up and locked in the Norden head and uncaged my
gyro.
A sudden burst of flack rocks Willie and tumbles my gyro. My sight is
blacked
out and I am only 30 seconds away from bombs away and helpless. I fight
with
the gimble rings to erect the gyro, 25 seconds to go, No luck yet, I
keep
workimg the gimble rings. Damned gyro won't stand up and get caged. What
do I
do now Howard? How about I read the fine 6 volime set on the Punic wars?


Read again what I have said repeatedly. The books won't help you in that
tactical situation.

But what target are you hitting? Why are you taking a specific ingress
route? I suggest that these were in your orders, and your crews didn't
originate them. The target selection staff, or the intelligence people
supporting them, may very well have saved some of your lives because
they were able to find a minimal-flak route -- for which you didn't have
the information to select.

Think
that wil help me? Or I can call Kevin or Swartz. They read a lot of books
so
they can surely help me now. I don't htink so. We go to war with our
training,
our experience and our natural instincts and abilities like hand-eye
co-oridanation, depth percption and reaction time.

Ever heard of William F. Friedman? The effects the war had on his
health, and the effect he had on the war? I'd rate Friedman's bravery
with that of any man in your group.

Books are objects of
intersts for after the war been done , fought and won or lost. Or books
are
really great for wannabees to quote to each other.Or for historians to
study
long after the fact..

No. Books, and current military reporting, can be an essential part of
planning the war.


But when it comes to fighting, they aren't much
help in
the heat if battle. But books are the only excuse the wanabees have for
living.
A wannabee can always say that an experienced combat veteran wll know
nothing
because he hasn't read a particular book. And the wannabee knows it all
because
has read that book.

Again, you are making the assumption that modern warfare is only about
combat. It's not. Combat is an essential part, but not the whole.

I have never seen a book that would help me get that
gyro up and cage in the remaining ten seconds..

Odd. I would have assumed, silly me, that having memorized the contents
of the instruction for that gyro and the associated equipment might very
much help. An engineer designed that gyro and wrote the instructions. Is
his or her contribution meaningless? How did the gyro get into Willie
the Wolf? Do you believe in the Gyro Fairy?

And from where I sat, that is
what
the war was all about. Maybe you can read about it in a book.


You are correct if only the combat crews contrinute winning a war. They
are not. If you want to engage in the fantasy that your particular
perspective was all there was to the war, I am truly sorry for you,
because I respect many things you share.