Are composite homebuilts dying out?

"cavelamb" wrote in message
...


That was Burt Rutan's particular gift to the state of the art.

A soft foam piece that was easy to develop into complex shapes,
and stayed in the part as a stiffening core.

Or remove the foam completely after layup, if it's not needed.

"Mold-less" construction.

True, but in lies the rub. It's just as much work to build one aircraft, as
the plug for a mold that will build many. Large panels and even two piece
fuse sections save a lot of work, and can produce even lighter panels.

That was Burt Rutan's particular gift to the state of the art.

A soft foam piece that was easy to develop into complex shapes,
and stayed in the part as a stiffening core.

Or remove the foam completely after layup, if it's not needed.

"Mold-less" construction.

Forgive me for jumping in to a forum to which I have no first-hand
experience other than supplying parts to you all who are building these
things.

I've been around the Rutan brothers since the vari-viggen and you are
correct. That was Rutan's gift to the art. And, there were a HELL of a lot
of Vari-EZ and Long-EZ aircraft made in what appeared to be a very short
time ... months, not years.

And when Rutan stopped supplying plans for those easy to build aircraft
somehow the time to construct took a quantum jump. Don't know why, just
observed the phenomenon.

Jim

rich wrote:
I'm just finishing mine, it's in the paint shop finally, but after 18
years fo work. (Glasair) I keep up with another homebuilder friend of
mine out on the west coast in Stockton, which is a good GA airport.
Lots of homebuilts under construction, good infastructure for GA on
the field, etc. He told me no one is building composite planes out
there anymore. It's like the word is out on how much work and how long
it takes to build the things, and it's becoming a thing of the past. I
just wonder if that trend is just in that area, or nationwide?

The observation may only apply locally.

Here's a different observation:
I notice that a newer composite design like the Arion Lightning appears to
be enjoying very fast builds (relatively speaking.)

They also appear to have a fairly high fraction of completions (44 flying
of 78 kits delivered, as of August 6. For perspective, the prototype first
flew in March 2006. So no one has struggled for years - yet.)

Good observation. I also realized that the Glasair 3 I built was a
"first generation" composite kit, with later labor saving ideas mostly
developed by other kit companies. I also bought a Glasair TD kit back
in the early 80's and they were even more work, but not by that much.
Now I could build another one in a fraction of the time it took me to
do the -3. But I've only got so many years left, and starting a
project that size again isn't in the cards for me.
Now, if I had unlimited money, I'd order AeroSupercharger Solutions
$16K bolt on supercharger kit for the Glasair 3 and take out to Reno
for a run around the pylons. But I'm spent, so that ain't gonna
happen.
Rich

On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 21:24:34 -0500, Jim Logajan
wrote:


The observation may only apply locally.

Here's a different observation:
I notice that a newer composite design like the Arion Lightning appears to
be enjoying very fast builds (relatively speaking.)

They also appear to have a fairly high fraction of completions (44 flying
of 78 kits delivered, as of August 6. For perspective, the prototype first
flew in March 2006. So no one has struggled for years - yet.)

rich wrote:
Good observation. I also realized that the Glasair 3 I built was a
"first generation" composite kit, with later labor saving ideas mostly
developed by other kit companies. I also bought a Glasair TD kit back
in the early 80's and they were even more work, but not by that much.
Now I could build another one in a fraction of the time it took me to
do the -3. But I've only got so many years left, and starting a
project that size again isn't in the cards for me.
Now, if I had unlimited money, I'd order AeroSupercharger Solutions
$16K bolt on supercharger kit for the Glasair 3 and take out to Reno
for a run around the pylons. But I'm spent, so that ain't gonna
happen.
Rich

On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 21:24:34 -0500, Jim Logajan
wrote:

The observation may only apply locally.

Here's a different observation:
I notice that a newer composite design like the Arion Lightning appears to
be enjoying very fast builds (relatively speaking.)

They also appear to have a fairly high fraction of completions (44 flying
of 78 kits delivered, as of August 6. For perspective, the prototype first
flew in March 2006. So no one has struggled for years - yet.)


Building an airplane involves many different kinds of jobs and develops a
whole host of new skills.

But the last job is the funnest one...

The job now, rich, is to fly your beautiful new airplane!


Enjoy


Richard

Yes, I'm really looking forward to that! I just wish the fuel hadn't
gotten so expensive since I started the thing. That big 6 Lycoming is
a thirsty animal. But if I look at it a different way, it doesn't seem
as bad. I'll be out there moving along at Warbird speeds and burning
only a fraction of the fuel they burn. But it's still expensive. I
just hope the engine doesn't give me problems after sitting for years.
It would be a shame to have to re-overhaul an overhauled engine.
One of the things I'm concerned with is the rubbers inside the fuel
injector and the Romec fuel pump. I don't know if there are any fuel
experts reading these threads, but from what I've been told, the Romec
fuel pump is a gear type, like an engine oil pump. So I can't
understand what rubber seals inside it could go bad, if any. But when
I spoke with Don George down in LAL this year, he said he'd be more
worried about the romec fuel pump than the Bendix fuel injector. That
Romec fuel pump is about half the size of a pack of cigarettes and
cost $600 to overhaul. And that was years ago. Now, who knows...
But that's airplanes...
Rich

On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 23:19:12 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:



Building an airplane involves many different kinds of jobs and develops a
whole host of new skills.

But the last job is the funnest one...

The job now, rich, is to fly your beautiful new airplane!


Enjoy


Richard

rich wrote:
Yes, I'm really looking forward to that! I just wish the fuel hadn't
gotten so expensive since I started the thing. That big 6 Lycoming is
a thirsty animal. But if I look at it a different way, it doesn't seem
as bad. I'll be out there moving along at Warbird speeds and burning
only a fraction of the fuel they burn. But it's still expensive. I
just hope the engine doesn't give me problems after sitting for years.
It would be a shame to have to re-overhaul an overhauled engine.
One of the things I'm concerned with is the rubbers inside the fuel
injector and the Romec fuel pump. I don't know if there are any fuel
experts reading these threads, but from what I've been told, the Romec
fuel pump is a gear type, like an engine oil pump. So I can't
understand what rubber seals inside it could go bad, if any. But when
I spoke with Don George down in LAL this year, he said he'd be more
worried about the romec fuel pump than the Bendix fuel injector. That
Romec fuel pump is about half the size of a pack of cigarettes and
cost $600 to overhaul. And that was years ago. Now, who knows...
But that's airplanes...
Rich


That would, of course, suck big time.

rich a écrit:

I'm just finishing mine, it's in the paint shop finally, but after 18
years fo work. (Glasair) I keep up with another homebuilder friend of
mine out on the west coast in Stockton, which is a good GA airport.
Lots of homebuilts under construction, good infastructure for GA on
the field, etc. He told me no one is building composite planes out
there anymore.

For me, composites are the best for homebuilt .
When a part is completed, , no corosion protection needed, no more
moisture protection. No special storage requirement too for resin and
fabrics.


by
--
« Si tous les poètes voulaient se donner la main, ils toucheraient enfin
des doigts d'auteur! »
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

On Aug 12, 5:57*pm, rich wrote:
I'm just finishing mine, it's in the paint shop finally, but after 18
years fo work. (Glasair) I keep up with another homebuilder friend of
mine out on the west coast in Stockton, which is a good GA airport.
Lots of homebuilts under construction, good infastructure for GA on
the field, etc. He told me no one is building composite planes out
there anymore. It's like the word is out on how much work and how long
it takes to build the things, and it's becoming a thing of the past. I
just wonder if that trend is just in that area, or nationwide? I know
in the present economy, homebuilts are probably down anyway, but what
he said about that trend started before the economy tanked.
If not many are building composite planes, then the only other ones I
would think are being built are metal (RV designs) and tube and
fabric. I doubt wood designs will come back, they're just as much work
as composite designes are, or more. (I've got one of those too
Rich

Rich,

First I would like to congratulate you on finishing your plane. I am
also building a KIS Cruiser and have been working on it for almost 14
calendar years. I suspect that life has gotten in the way of your
completing your project earlier as it has with my project. The fact
that you continued to completion says a lot about you and your
dedication to seeing it through.

There are several issues that I have repeatedly seen with composite
aircraft that I have not seen as frequently with the RV's which seem
to be the dominate kit on the market.

The first has to do with quality of the supplied molded parts.
Because of the low volumes most kit manufacturers have to deal with,
they have little incentive to invest in the best quality molds and the
refinements needed to make parts that require little additional work
prior to assembly. This means that the builder must spend substantial
time in cleanup, fit and finish. Every composite kit company that I
know of still has extensive labor involved and can not automate their
processes like Van's has done with much of his fabrication process.

The second is builder enhancements (modifications) to the original
design. These changes can be anything from a minor change to some
major redesign to the entire airframe. I have seen hundreds of RV's
over the years and few of them make anything beyond cosmetic changes
and those that do are usually experience builders on their n'th
build. I know in my own case that I have made dozens of changes,
mostly minor, that have cumulatively added several hundred hours to my
build time. If I had exactly followed the original plans...I would
have been flying already.

There are many more differences but the last that I will hit on is
Finish. That is where almost every time gain a composite builder may
have achieved in the construction process is wiped out. The standards
for finishing a composite aircraft are unreal and really totally
unnecessary. With a few notable exceptions the builders of the RV's
will complete and fly their planes with no paint or will spend little
time and effort beyond having a paint shop spray them. That's not
saying they aren't great looking planes but they don't get anal about
a rivet showing or a slight ripple in the wing or fuselage surface.
That is expected when working with metal. The glass builders seem
obsessed with producing a finish that has the quality of a fine
mirror. Gawd forbid that the fabric weave should happen to show
through.

Having said that, I must admit that I have already got a couple
hundred hours into the fill and sand process that preceeds the primer
and more fill and sand. I just can't help myself.

Finally, there are still a lot of composite kits being built.
Lancair, Glassair, Velocity, TeamTango, CompAir, and a host of others
come to mind. They will continue to be a major player in the market
but lets also admit that when it comes to great, affordable, and
buildable aircraft...Van's Aircraft are the dominate company as of
now.

I did some of the body work myself as I built, and when the parts were
all done, I took it to a body shop. The guy's painting it complete for
$4K. And I'm real happy with that. He's done a great job of doing the
finish work, and it's ready for paint now. At first, they sanded right
through my wing fillets. But I took some of the cloth out there and
showed them how thin it was and from then on they did good work. And
one nice thing about composites is they repair easily. I started
building the 3 in 1991, afterwards the kids came into my life, plus
working full time, but I kept at it. But one thing I did find kind of
strange is with the parts all out at the paint shop, I've been so used
to being able to walk out to my shop and work on the plane, it's
strange having no project to work on. I'm sure once it's flying, going
out to the airport and tinkering with it will keep me busy.
I know what you mean about the mods, I've done some of those too.
Most from the advise of other builders I'd talk to at LAL and OSH.
The thing is with a Glasair, the final assembly can't be completed
until the thing is painted. Unless it's put together complete, then
taken to an aircraft painter. And they all charge $12K to paint a
composite plane. Good luck finishing your KIS Cruiser....
You know, when I started the Glasair 3, I thought it would take me 5
years to build. Now 18 years later I see I made a big miscalculation!
Rich




On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 07:35:50 -0700 (PDT), BobR
wrote:



Rich,

First I would like to congratulate you on finishing your plane. I am
also building a KIS Cruiser and have been working on it for almost 14
calendar years. I suspect that life has gotten in the way of your
completing your project earlier as it has with my project. The fact
that you continued to completion says a lot about you and your
dedication to seeing it through.

There are several issues that I have repeatedly seen with composite
aircraft that I have not seen as frequently with the RV's which seem
to be the dominate kit on the market.

The first has to do with quality of the supplied molded parts.
Because of the low volumes most kit manufacturers have to deal with,
they have little incentive to invest in the best quality molds and the
refinements needed to make parts that require little additional work
prior to assembly. This means that the builder must spend substantial
time in cleanup, fit and finish. Every composite kit company that I
know of still has extensive labor involved and can not automate their
processes like Van's has done with much of his fabrication process.

The second is builder enhancements (modifications) to the original
design. These changes can be anything from a minor change to some
major redesign to the entire airframe. I have seen hundreds of RV's
over the years and few of them make anything beyond cosmetic changes
and those that do are usually experience builders on their n'th
build. I know in my own case that I have made dozens of changes,
mostly minor, that have cumulatively added several hundred hours to my
build time. If I had exactly followed the original plans...I would
have been flying already.

There are many more differences but the last that I will hit on is
Finish. That is where almost every time gain a composite builder may
have achieved in the construction process is wiped out. The standards
for finishing a composite aircraft are unreal and really totally
unnecessary. With a few notable exceptions the builders of the RV's
will complete and fly their planes with no paint or will spend little
time and effort beyond having a paint shop spray them. That's not
saying they aren't great looking planes but they don't get anal about
a rivet showing or a slight ripple in the wing or fuselage surface.
That is expected when working with metal. The glass builders seem
obsessed with producing a finish that has the quality of a fine
mirror. Gawd forbid that the fabric weave should happen to show
through.

Having said that, I must admit that I have already got a couple
hundred hours into the fill and sand process that preceeds the primer
and more fill and sand. I just can't help myself.

Finally, there are still a lot of composite kits being built.
Lancair, Glassair, Velocity, TeamTango, CompAir, and a host of others
come to mind. They will continue to be a major player in the market
but lets also admit that when it comes to great, affordable, and
buildable aircraft...Van's Aircraft are the dominate company as of
now.