Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

On Aug 23, 1:51*pm, " wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxkiT8gWIQo

Had never done an emergency descent with banking as a tool. *It was
suggested to me to try this with a 90 degree bank.

Very interesting experience as it really works and works quickly! *I
tried 2 without banking and 2 with banking of which the video contains
one of each.

Video contains both outside and instrumentation views but the
instrumentation view unfortunately wasn't as good as I hoped. *Camera
power saving feature shut the camera off and I lost my zoom setting.

Comments here or on the video most appreciated on helping me improve
the technique as this was my first time doing this

You were conducting aerobatic flight. Breaking the law is one thing
but are you certified for aerobatics? What about your aircraft? This
could get you killed. Let me remind you that aerobatics are maneuvers
outside those required for "normal" flight FAR 91.303. To get down
quickly you should slip, or use full flaps, The risk of overspeed is
very high, you have to increase drag to dump energy...
Cheers

atlieb,

Whether your technique is effective or not is one question. Whether what you did was safe is another.

I'm assuming from your initial posts that this technique has not been demonstrated to you by a flight instructor, and is not approved in the Pilot's Operating Handbook or similar. If this is the case, then congratulations! You have now embarked on a career as an amateur experimental test-pilot, stepping boldly into the unknown etc.

Without knowing a whole lot more about you, your aircraft and the exact circumstances of your flight, no-one here is in a position to judge whether what you did was "safe" or not. But I kind of suspect that you may not have considered all the intricacies of your new profession in flight test. So, if I may, I'd like to ask a few questions about how you undertook this experiment:

What is the maximum normal acceleration for your aircraft? What was the maximum normal acceleration you experienced?

What is the corner speed for your aircraft? What was your calibrated airspeed in relation to corner speed?

What is Va for your aircraft? If you were above Va, what is the limiting aileron deflection?

What is the limiting sideslip angle for your aircraft? What sideslip angle did you achieve?

On the instrumentation video it looks like your rate of descent was off the clock. So with high ROD and large angle-of-bank, how much vertical airspace did you calculate that you would require to recover? What height did you enter the manoeuvre? What height did you commence recovery? What height did you recover at?

How much normal acceleration did you use in the recovery?

High normal acceleration equals increase stall speed. What do you think your stall speed was during this manoeuvre? And what are the accelerated stall characteristics for this aircraft?

Remember that whilst this is a theory test, it is not an open-book exam... Especially as you have already conducted the practical!

It may be that you considered all of the above, found satisfactory answers to those questions, and conducted your flight with all risks as low as is reasonably possible. I still think your life expectancy would be better without part-time experimentation, but well done on your testing philosophy.

But, if some of the questions make you stop and think, or you can't see the relevance, or (worse still) you can't understand the question, then amateur test-piloting is not for you and I would strongly advise that you stay safely within the bounds of the aircraft envelope.

Good luck, either way.

On Aug 23, 8:03*am, Gauntlet
wrote:

*What
height did you enter the manoeuvre? *What height did you commence
recovery? *What height did you recover at?

I can't answer the book questions, only the streetwise questions.

Altimeter hands clearly show that I started the banked descent at
6000. I approached VNE very quickly and recovered at 4500 clearly
seen in the video. In the beginning of the video, I also alerted ATC
that I would work between 4000 and 6000 and told them that I would be
making rapid altitude changes so they could expect that. 325 is my
airport elevation so I had plenty of altitude. Gmeter in my plane
showed a maximum 2 G value on recovery, and there was no negative G
recorded I only banked, no pulling or pushing in the yoke and held the
bank angle until the nose started to drop. Video also shows my
recovery was not abrupt as I let the plane fly out on it's own. I had
a self imposed floor of 4000 and as you can see in the video, VNE came
up before the floor, so I let the plane level on it's own without any
power adjustment.

I did do two emergency descents without bank to get a feel of what was
needed for nose down attitude without pushing on the yoke excessively.

Beech Sundowner is my plane and commercial maneuvers are permitted. I
have a little over 950 hours in my plane I did check out all I could
before doing this maneuver.(see response to Robert Moore) and didn't
do this "blindly" as the intent of my own lesson was to learn how to
descend quickly should an imminent head on be in my future.

I do feel I did all I could research wise to ensure safety, and as you
can see, the outcome does speak for itself. I posted the video for
entertainment, educational value on how I fly, we all know it's not
designed for instructional value nor is this the intent of any of my
videos.

Truth be known, I felt just as safe doing this as doing a power on /
power off stall. Nose dropped just the same. Only difference I felt
was the speed was higher, G forces were non existent and I had to be
on top of my game for energy management..

"Flaps_50!" wrote

You were conducting aerobatic flight.

TRUE

Breaking the law is one thing

IN WHAT RESPECT

but are you certified for aerobatics?

PILOTS DON'T HAVE TO BE CERTIFIED FOR AEROBATICS in the USofA

What about your aircraft?

When properly equipped, the B23 and C23 are approved for limited
aerobatics. (Wikipedia)

This could get you killed.

Normal takeoffs and landings kill a lot of pilots.

Let me remind you that aerobatics are maneuvers
outside those required for "normal" flight FAR 91.303.

LET ME REMIND YOU.... that the Sundowner is approved for Spins.
Google "Beechcraft Sundowner Spins" and you will find a reference
to "The Light Airplane Pilot's Guide to Stall/Spin Awareness By Rich
Stowell". I would suggest that you read the paragraphs on the following
web page.
http://books.google.com/books?id=i8r...A304&lpg=PA304
&dq=Spins+in+sundowner&source=bl&ots=u0xxM-hDbY&sig=r8g_VtQN_AjTS8Cql-
tWtg0geRo&hl=en&ei=KD2RSo_BKoH8tge9p6TPBA&sa=X&oi= book_result&ct=result&
resnum=10#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Jeeze...damn amateurs.......

Bob Moore
ATP B-727, B-707, L-188
USN S-2F , P-2V , P-3B
Flight Instructor ASE-I
PanAm (retired)

On Aug 23, 8:17*am, Robert Moore wrote:
"Flaps_50!" wrote

You were conducting aerobatic flight.

TRUE

Robert,

I am under the impression what I did was a commercial maneuver. This
is done for emergency descents for commercial jet jockeys and of
course Lears wouldn't be doing acro flight..

See http://discussions.flightaware.com/v...?p=87546#87546
where I raised this question before undertaking the exercise.
Thoughts?

"BeechSundowner" wrote in message
...
On Aug 23, 8:17 am, Robert Moore wrote:
"Flaps_50!" wrote

You were conducting aerobatic flight.

TRUE

Robert,

I am under the impression what I did was a commercial maneuver. This
is done for emergency descents for commercial jet jockeys and of
course Lears wouldn't be doing acro flight..

See http://discussions.flightaware.com/v...?p=87546#87546
where I raised this question before undertaking the exercise.
Thoughts?

First of all, I really doubt that anyone other than the NetKops on UseNet
care whether you were conducting acrobatic flight. Personally, the only
reason I can think of for an emergency descent in a non-pressurized light
single is a fire; and in that case I might not stop at 90 degrees. Besides,
in an actual emergency, "ya gotta do what ya gotta do" and being prepared
under non-emergency conditions is usually more than half the battle!

As to commercial jets, each type may require a type rating and each type
rating may include a recommended procedure. There is an article on flying
corporate and commercial turbine powered aircraft in each issue of AOPA
Pilot, and one of the issues about a year ago did include a simulated
emergency descent. In the aircraft type involved, it was easily possible
for an attendant or passenger to be standing in the cabin at the time that
an emergency might develope; so IIRC the proceedure used in the article was
to roll about 30 degrees and push over sufficiently to feel a little light
in the seat (about 1/2G) while retarding the thrust levers to flight idle.
The article covered the procedure trained by a particular operator of a
particular aircraft type.

Peter

On Aug 23, 10:02*am, "Peter Dohm" wrote:

*Besides,
in an actual emergency, "ya gotta do what ya gotta do" and being prepared
under non-emergency conditions is usually more than half the battle!

Exactly why I went out Peter, and it's not like I didn't try to do the
research before doing this
maneuver in the first place.

The intent of this lesson wasn't to learn or fly acro but to better
myself in
see and avoid situations. Last time I did this was 2001 when I was in
VFR training
in a Cessna so why not bring myself up to speed in "currency" in my
own plane?

As you can see, this from the Flight Aware thread I provided, came up
because of the Hudson
River mid air and discussions ensued on evasive maneuvers, thus me
wanting to expand
on my own envelope on avoiding a mid air collision.

I know I may be comparing apples and oranges when comparing jets to
pistons
but the concept of minimal G for the bank lead me to believe what was
posted
in the thread I brought here as it being a non acrobatic maneuver.

I now have expanded my avoidance in two directions rather then one.
Right and down rather
then just down.

On Aug 24, 2:16*am, BeechSundowner wrote:
On Aug 23, 8:17*am, Robert Moore wrote:

"Flaps_50!" wrote

You were conducting aerobatic flight.

TRUE

Robert,

I am under the impression what I did was a commercial maneuver. *This
is done for emergency descents for commercial jet jockeys and of
course Lears wouldn't be doing acro flight..

You can do aerobatics in controlled airspace without a waver from the
director?

Cheers

On Aug 31, 5:46*am, "Flaps_50!" wrote:

You can do aerobatics in controlled airspace without a waver from the
director?

What in the world are you talking about? I was in an area where
sudden changes of flight is expected (practice area) I advised ATC in
the very beginning I would be making rapid altitude changes in the
practice area which I seriously doubt most other pilots would have
thought of doing. Your thoughts of wake turbulence is even further
out of wack as in my area, they don't send commercial traffic through
the practice area nor was anybody above me in the practice area..

Oh yeah, what defines aerobatics in your head? Please provide
references as I am below.

I called my local FSDO regarding my video. Aerobatics is NOT defined
by a number for pitch and roll. 91.303 Aerobatics are defined by
ABRUPT changes in pitch and roll, The word ABRUPT is subjective just
like reckless and carelessness. Unusual attitude in .303 is
subjective and again not defined by a degree of pitch or bank.

Practicing emergency maneuvers, commercial maneuvers or practicing
unusual attitudes (for IMC work or even stalls - think greater then 30
degree pitch) are NOT considered aerobatic per my FSDO. Don't believe
me, call your local FSDO equivelant.

30 degree pitch 60 bank refers to parachute requirements ONLY and
parachutes are ONLY required if I am carrying passengers (instructors
and crew are not considered passengers). 91.307 I confirmed this
with the FSDO so again if you don't believe me, call your local FSDO.

On Aug 23, 9:17*am, Robert Moore wrote:
"Flaps_50!" wrote

You were conducting aerobatic flight.

TRUE

Breaking the law is one thing

IN WHAT RESPECT

but are you certified for aerobatics?

PILOTS DON'T HAVE TO BE CERTIFIED FOR AEROBATICS in the USofA

What about your aircraft?

When properly equipped, the B23 and C23 are approved for limited
aerobatics. (Wikipedia)

This could get you killed.

Normal takeoffs and landings kill a lot of pilots.

Let me remind you that aerobatics are maneuvers
outside those required for "normal" flight FAR 91.303.

LET ME REMIND YOU.... that the Sundowner is approved for Spins.
Google "Beechcraft Sundowner Spins" and you will find a reference
to "The Light Airplane Pilot's Guide to Stall/Spin Awareness By Rich
Stowell". I would suggest that you read the paragraphs on the following
web page.http://books.google.com/books?id=i8r...A304&lpg=PA304
&dq=Spins+in+sundowner&source=bl&ots=u0xxM-hDbY&sig=r8g_VtQN_AjTS8Cql-
tWtg0geRo&hl=en&ei=KD2RSo_BKoH8tge9p6TPBA&sa=X&oi= book_result&ct=result&
resnum=10#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Jeeze...damn amateurs.......

Bob Moore
ATP B-727, B-707, L-188
USN S-2F , P-2V , P-3B
Flight Instructor ASE-I
PanAm (retired)

I'm wondering why the 60 degree bank 30 degree pitch requirement of a
'chute for all occupants doesn't apply?