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#201
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New Butterfly Vario
On Wednesday, February 15, 2012 11:17:31 PM UTC-5, wrote:
6.6.3 ‡ Carrying any two-way communication device is prohibited, with the following exceptions, each of which must be a standard, commercially available model that is not used to provide any in-flight capabilities beyond those referenced below: 6.6.3.1 ‡ An aircraft-band VHF radio 6.6.3.2 ‡ An aircraft transponder 6.6.3.3 ‡ A wireless telephone (which is not to be used during flight) 6.6.3.4 ‡ A air-to-ground position reporting device 6.6.3.5 ‡ anti-collision device. Rule 6.6.3 does not forbid the use of a standard GPS output data stream or GPS log produced by the device. 6.6.4 Other than an aircraft-band VHF radio, any device that allows in- flight access to weather data is prohibited. 6.6.5 Violations of any provisions of this Rule are considered Unsportsmanlike Conduct. (Penalty described in Rule 12.2.5.3.) Hank, John Squared, et. al., You guys already know how much I appreciate your service and dedication, so I'll move right along... Look at rule 6.6.3.3. Now let's think about it. We CAN carry a "wireless telephone", but we are on the honor system not to use it in flight. Frankly, it's a completely unenforcable rule, right? I could easily use it to cheat. I could call my crew and ask them to bring up the latest hi-res satellite loop on the laptop. "It looks like it's ODing toward the second turn -how's it look to you?" Heck, I could call my friend 2,000 miles away if he or she is sitting at a computer. Obviously, it's less convenient than doing it right in the cockpit using my smartphone. But, it's somewhere on the cheating continuum. Of course, I could do that on the "company frequency" using my good old VHF radio, running a slight risk that someone might be snooping on that frequency. Don't tell me it's never been done. So, following the logic of banning instruments with the potential to give an unfair advantage to someone willing to cheat... I for one am certainly NOT arguing for cloud flying, nor am I buying the argument that having these instruments enhances safety. I am in the camp that says technology is moving faster than the rules can keep up (Kurzweil's Law of Accelerating Returns). I have more computing, communications, and sensing power in my Android phone than the Space Shuttle had when it first came out for less than the cost of a NASA toilet paper holder. We can't even imagine what's going to be possible in just a couple of years. I think it's time to get back to communicating the broad principles and get out of the business of trying to police cockpit technology. Yes, a few unscrupulous sorts will try to take advantage. A few may even succeed. Those few will have to live with the knowlege that they violated the trust of fellow pilots. That should be punishment enough. Sincerely, Erik Mann |
#202
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New Butterfly Vario
On 2/16/2012 9:55 AM, Sean Fidler wrote:
John, I respect your concerns. I really, really do. I'm still trying to understand why this is such an important safety issue to you. So far, your concern seems to be based entirely on the possibility of it happening, as you haven't shown how it would have made contests safer in the past. It doesn't seem like it's something we need to speculate about, with a rule that's been in force for 40 years or so. There should be plenty of incidents to talk about if the danger is as high as you claim. Please humor me on these questions: Have you ever been sucked into a cloud during a contest, or do you know someone that has? Was there an incident that occurred outside of contest that made you think getting near clouds was so dangerous, you'd rather sit on the ground than fly without an AH? Why do you think no one teaches students about using an AH, and why the FAA doesn't require it to get a license? -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) |
#203
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#204
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New Butterfly Vario
dan,
i believe that you are wrong. this in no way makes you a bad person for being wrong. i think your starting to get it now. this rule is simply not going to survive as it stands. its just bad (the cell phone thing too). grammer (capitalization, etc) is rarely a concern for me from a cell phone as I travel throughout the day. i really dont care about editing this stuff. if you dont like it, dont read it. i type once and move on. get over it. is that all you have now? lol! but i guess you are trying to call me dumb in your own little way there, huh dan? ok. fine. dan, this is not a personal thing with anyone (at least with me). it is a very healthy argument and is worthwhile. just because you dont like it i should take your example (which i highly doubt) and stop? it has meaning to many and there are alot of people who share my opinion. it is really about a principle we apparently do not share. safety focus or pure competition? trust pilots or dont. go with technology smoothly or fight it tooth and nail as old foggy's have with every new advancement in this sport and others for years (gps, vario's, smartphones, etc) i vote safety in favor of honest sportsman. let people use AH if they choose, its more of a pain in the ass to remove them now then not allowing them.. they are everywhere. i vote to let new technology such as smart phones in (as literally everyone has them right now as I type) rather than making everyone instead go to walmart and screw around buying some other useless cheapy phone for the contest. come on guys! seriously? this clearly is really going to irritate alot of people as you can already see. its so dumb its literally sad. the rules committee has been focused on safety recently in certain areas but it needs to refresh a few more rules in order to be consistent. these two rules (no ah and no smart phone) clearly stand out as not focused on safety. not to mention they are dumb rules based on today's reality. do you really think that a pilot with a smartphone is going to be flying in the clouds and disseminating weather information well enough to win contests? is this the same protest the slow movers in soaring had to electronic vario's in the 70's and GPS in the 90's? i praise tom k for standing up and calling out the rule in the past but that does not make the rule right. and i did not hear a peep from anyone in the 3 contests i flew last season. why...because its a dumb rule and only a couple people care about it. lets not be dumb anymore everyone. lets be smart and change these silly rules and move on. ;-) Sean F2 |
#205
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New Butterfly Vario
Have you ever been sucked into a cloud during a contest, or do you know
someone that has? NOT I BUT YES I KNOW SEVERAL OTHERS WHO HAVE. I ALSO KNOW ALOT OF PRIVATE POWER PILOTS WHO HAVE MADE THE SAME ERROR. IN GLIDERS, KEMPTON, AND 3 OTHERS I WILL NOT NAME. ONE LITERALLY THOUGHT HE WAS WITHOUT WINGS FOR SEVERAL MOMENTS AND TOO HIS SURPRISE THEY WERE STILL THERE (SOUNDS LIKE FUN TO ME).. I AM NEW TO THE HIGH LEVELS OF THIS SPORT BUT I HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE MORE WHO HAVE MADE THIS ERROR. I DONT BELIEVE EVERYONE IS LIKE KEMPTON AND WRITES ARTICLES ABOUT IT. I BELIEVE THE AH WOULD HELP FAR MORE THAN WOULD EVER CONSIDER CHEATING BY THIS MEANS. Was there an incident that occurred outside of contest that made you think getting near clouds was so dangerous, you'd rather sit on the ground than fly without an AH? I AM AN INSTRUMENT RATED PILOT, I GET IT. I FEEL THAT THE TECHNOLOGY IS A SAFETY MEASURE AND NO MATTER HOW SLIGHT THE CHANCE IT IS RIDICULOUS TO START HAVING PEOPLE DEBILITATING INSTRUMENTS TO REMOVE THE TECHNOLOGY AS IT CAN BE A LIFE SAVER TO A PILOT WHO MIGHT NEED IT. SIMPLE FACT. I WILL FLY WITHIN THE RULES, ULTIMATELY. I AM NO WAY AM CONSIDERING NOT FLYING. END EVEN THOUGH SOME PERHAPS DISLIKE ME KNOW FOR ARGUING THIS TOPIC, I THINK ITS IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO STAY WITH. Why do you think no one teaches students about using an AH, and why the FAA doesn't require it to get a license? DONT CARE AND BECAUSE WE ARE LAZY IN GENERAL AS AN INDUSTRY. I FEEL MOST CONTEST PILOTS ARE GOOD "HHOONNEESSTT" PILOTS EASILY CAPABLE OF MAINTAINING LEVEL FLIGHT WITH A GOOD AH OR T&B IF THEY HAPPENED TO GET PULLED IN, RATHER THAN PULLING THERE WINGS OFF IN A BENIGN SPIRAL OR UNCONTROLLED DECENT OR PARACHUTE JUMP. Im starting to think that some think I am arguing so that I can personally cheat. I hope not. I just think that going against the tide of technology here is a waste of time. stop, and go with it. Why do you, eric, think it is bad to allow AH for everyone and smartphones? Just go with it? Would that be bad? Why? - show quoted text - |
#206
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New Butterfly Vario
On Feb 17, 8:14*am, Sean Fidler wrote:
dan, i believe that you are wrong. *this in no way makes you a bad person for being wrong. *i think your starting to get it now. *this rule is simply not going to survive as it stands. *its just bad (the cell phone thing too). grammer (capitalization, etc) is rarely a concern for me from a cell phone as I travel throughout the day. *i really dont care about editing this stuff. *if you dont like it, dont read it. *i type once and move on. *get over it. *is that all you have now? *lol! *but i *guess you are trying to call me dumb in your own little way there, huh dan? *ok. *fine. dan, this is not a personal thing with anyone (at least with me). *it is a very healthy argument and is worthwhile. *just because you dont like it i should take your example (which i highly doubt) and stop? *it has meaning to many and there are alot of people who share my opinion. *it is really about a principle we apparently do not share. *safety focus or pure competition? *trust pilots or dont. *go with technology smoothly or fight it tooth and nail as old foggy's have with every new advancement in this sport and others for years (gps, vario's, smartphones, etc) i vote safety in favor of honest sportsman. *let people use AH if they choose, its more of a pain in the ass to remove them now then not allowing them. *they are everywhere. *i vote to let new technology such as smart phones in (as literally everyone has them right now as I type) rather than making everyone instead go to walmart and screw around buying some other useless cheapy phone for the contest. *come on guys! *seriously? *this clearly is really going to irritate alot of people as you can already see. *its so dumb its literally sad. *the rules committee has been focused on safety recently in certain areas but it needs to refresh a few more rules in order to be consistent. *these two rules (no ah and no smart phone) clearly stand out as not focused on safety. *not to mention they are dumb rules based on today's reality. do you really think that a pilot with a smartphone is going to be flying in the clouds and disseminating weather information well enough to win contests? *is this the same protest the slow movers in soaring had to electronic vario's in the 70's and GPS in the 90's? *i praise tom k for standing up and calling out the rule in the past but that does not make the rule right. *and i did not hear a peep from anyone in the 3 contests i flew last season. *why...because its a dumb rule and only a couple people care about it. lets not be dumb anymore everyone. *lets be smart and change these silly rules and move on. *;-) Sean F2 I propose a compromise: If you can suffer without your gyros for one more season, I will put a question on the Fall pilot opinion poll. We can ask pilots if they would like to remove the ban on carrying cloud- flying instruments. While the poll is advisory, not a vote on the rules, such a poll would give all of us a much clearer view of the matter. Would pilots prefer the "safety" option of having a gyro installed, or the reassurance that other pilots are not using their "safety" instrument to win contests? Let's find out. Then we could get off this topic for a season and go flying! John Cochrane. |
#207
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New Butterfly Vario
Eric- i understand that in europe cloud flying training was part of the private glider pilot requirements. not sure if this is still the case today.
in general i think basic instrument skills should be a part of all pilot training, even sport & glider pilot. every pilot should have some basic understanding of how to maintain control of their aircraft if forced into imc. im not saying they will all live, but that doesn't mean they should not have some training. |
#208
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New Butterfly Vario
John,
as long as you change the poll to read: "carrying inadvertent imc safety instruments which many already have disabled according to current rules", and smart phones. ;-) calling them cloud flying instruments is perhaps a little biased and really goes down the same old path which assumes everyone is a cheater at heart. |
#209
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New Butterfly Vario
On Feb 17, 8:42*am, Sean Fidler wrote:
John, as long as you change the poll to read: "carrying inadvertent imc safety instruments which many already have disabled according to current rules", and smart phones. *;-) calling them cloud flying instruments is perhaps a little biased and really goes down the same old path which assumes everyone is a cheater at heart.. I'll use the language of the rules, with a pro/con and also poll satisfaction with the disabling protocol. John Cochrane |
#210
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New Butterfly Vario
Fair enough.
At the end of the day this is all about having fun and being safe. If I am massively naive in the level by which people will push the rules in this matter, I apologize. It is unfortunate that we cannot simply have all of these tools in the gliders and trust that our fellow pilots would fly legally, fairly and within the rules. But I do understand that this may not be the case and that their may not be a perfect solution here. I enjoyed the discussion for the most part and look forward to seeing where this all goes. For the record, I was going to exchange my V7 for a butterfly, but have decided to keep the V7 which has no AH. I think its better to let this play out before investing $3500 in a modern Vario. It would be too easy to be accused of foiling any safeguards in the Butterfly firmware. Im not sure that butterfly will be successful in removing all of the risk of cheating with their effort. What of the LX Zues? What of all the others that come along, etc. Probably better to see where this rule goes. Probably better for the soaring instrument manufactures to rethink their product marketing, etc. Sean F2 |
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