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#231
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
In message , Alexander
writes Andrew Swallow wrote: And even if they do get to England how does the German Army resupply? The Royal Navy would find sinking unarmed merchant ships and barges in the Channel a turkey shoot. Unlike land battles ordinary trunks on ordinary roads/railways cannot be used. If the ports are over run who refuels, rearms the ships that are now toothless. So you have to capture Portsmouth, Dover, Harwich, Hull and Scapa all in the first day of the war? Going to be an... interesting task. Germany do a helluva a job resupplying their troops megamiles away in Russia. That "helluva job" had the front lines running out of fuel, ammunition and spare parts even in 1941, and the winter clothing never did make it through. The Germans never did get a grip on logistics. -- He thinks too much, such men are dangerous. Paul J. Adam |
#232
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
Bill Kambic wrote:
How did the Allies supply themselves in Normandy without any operational ports? Since the Germans would not have any operational ports, how would they supply themselves? Mulberry harbours http://www.combinedops.com/Mulberry%20Harbours.htm and PLUTO http://www.combinedops.com/pluto.htm |
#233
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Mar 19, 10:02*am, Jack Linthicum
wrote: ... I would not call the ships sunk at Guadalcanal "shipping". They were warships. Chicago, Quincy, Vincennes, Canberra and Astoria all Cruisers. They were sunk by IJN gunfire in NIGHT battles where aircraft from neither side participated. The Japanese Navy ruled the seas by night, the Cactus Air Force by day, until the battleship Washington arrived. From "Guadalcanal Diary" "I found out later that there had been forty Japanese planes attacking; that sixteen of these were shot down on the spot, and the remaining twenty-four destroyed by our fighters, one by one, as they streaked for home. The Japanese torpedo bombers had not gone after the warships, contenting themselves with merely strafing the transports as they passed by." One transport, the George F. Elliot, was hit by a crashing plane and lost. So you were a CIA analyst??? jsw |
#234
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 05:53:42 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
wrote: Look up "Mulberry" I know what a "Mulberry" was. I also know that they were part of a solution. What was the rest of it? |
#235
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Mar 19, 12:58*pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote: In message , Alexander writes Andrew Swallow wrote: And even if they do get to England how does the German Army resupply? The Royal Navy would find sinking unarmed merchant ships and barges in the Channel a turkey shoot. *Unlike land battles ordinary trunks on ordinary roads/railways cannot be used. If the ports are over run who refuels, rearms the ships that are now toothless. So you have to capture Portsmouth, Dover, Harwich, Hull and Scapa all in the first day of the war? Going to be an... interesting task. Germany do a helluva a job resupplying their troops megamiles away in Russia. That "helluva job" had the front lines running out of fuel, ammunition and spare parts even in 1941, and the winter clothing never did make it through. The Germans never did get a grip on logistics. -- He thinks too much, such men are dangerous. Paul J. Adam Out of Warlimont's "memoirs", a bit of revelation. "Since the war the results of a number of high-level studies conducted by the Luftwaffe towards the end of the thirties have been published; all led to the conclusion that in all probability the Luftwaffe, even with the support of the Navy, would not be able to bring about the capitulation of the British Isles--add all this up and it is clear that the officers at the highest levels of the OKW were misled and deceived. Hitler at least must have been fully briefed by Goring on the limitations to the capabilities of the Luftwaffe." He likes to duck the responsibility for not knowing about these studies. |
#236
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 06:16:15 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
wrote: On Mar 19, 8:55*am, Bill Kambic wrote: On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:34:42 -0500, Alexander wrote: If the ports are over run who refuels, rearms the ships that are now toothless. Germany do a helluva a job resupplying their troops megamiles away in Russia. That is until American Airpower mixed with what little airpower England had left wiped out their supply lines. Germany was basically starving to death from 1943 onward and yet damned near turned the tide at the battle of the bulge. With out American logistics England and Russia were flat ****ed! Get over it. You fools made bad decisions and we bailed you out. Now we have made some bad economic decisions and I doubt any of you will even stir to bail us out. Of course we will turn this around on our own as we always have in the past. How did the Allies supply themselves in Normandy without any operational ports? *Since the Germans would not have any operational ports, how would they supply themselves? As I said in another response to this question "look up 'Mulberry'" And, again, I invite you to look at the rest of the picture. |
#237
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
My response is also directed to Mr. Kambic's reply,
concerning logistics. On Mar 19, 8:59 am, Chris wrote: On Mar 19, 12:49 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote: An army of 100,000 could easily turn out 1000 barges a day! Low skill labor, I could organize that. Man, Ken, you are really unlucky. If you had been born in the 1760's you would have been a *superstar.* You see, in the 1790's and 1800's there were a lot of people trying to build lots blue water hulls for some big wars they had going on at the time. They thought, because of their hundreds of years of accumulated experience and lifetimes spent actually building ships, that it required a great deal of time, specialized materials and highly skilled labor demanding large wages. If only you had been there with your experience gained doing something completely different as a hobby, you could have shown them the errors of their ways. Any navy would have been thrilled with your ability to produce a sloop or frigate type hull with a hundred unskilled workers in a single day. Chris Manteuffel The Vikings were building sea worthy boats in 900AD, (I've designed and built boats and helped others do that), I think Germans could build a landing craft to cross the ditch, I assigned 1000 man hours to build one, if ya can't get that done, you deserve to lose the war, (oh yeah). A 1000 barges a day (on average) covers logistics. Ceasar and Normy had no problem in 0AD, then 1066AD, if ya wanna toss dates, (cutie pie). Beach head is a problem, but German 88's could seriously impair a Brit counter-attack, and once the Nazi's get a farmers field to do Me-109's, with air support from France, well things would get hairy, A few dozen farmers fields loading up with Me-109's, Stuka's. I hear Hitler didn't trust Stalin, and figured Stalin would attack Germany if Germany attacked England, who can you trust? (in the good old days). Hitler was more emotionally involved with strengthening the Eastern front than attacking a ****y little island, as detailed in Mein Kampf. Ken |
#238
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Mar 19, 1:18*pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Mar 19, 10:02*am, Jack Linthicum wrote: ... I would not call the ships sunk at Guadalcanal "shipping". They were warships. Chicago, Quincy, Vincennes, Canberra and Astoria all Cruisers.. They were sunk by IJN gunfire in NIGHT battles where aircraft from neither side participated. The Japanese Navy ruled the seas by night, the Cactus Air Force by day, until the battleship Washington arrived. From "Guadalcanal Diary" "I found out later that there had been forty Japanese planes attacking; that sixteen of these were shot down on the spot, and the remaining twenty-four destroyed by our fighters, one by one, as they streaked for home. The Japanese torpedo bombers had not gone after the warships, contenting themselves with merely strafing the transports as they passed by." One transport, the George F. Elliot, was hit by a crashing plane and lost. So you were a CIA analyst??? jsw What does being a CIA analyst have to do with the ships that were sunk? I saw a movie at OCS on the superiority of the Japanese at night fighting that didn't bother to mention that a burning ship provided light for their attack and precluded the Allies seeing that attack as it developed. By the way, which of these battles featured Japanese aircraft sinking "shipping"? |
#239
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message ... I read that Brit's used biplanes carrying torpedoes to get Bismarck, Brits practically invented torpedoing ships from air. Nazi torps were likely better than the Brits torps any brit stuff in the channel would be luftwaffe fodder, japs proved that. The notion of using expensive a/c (bombers, spits, whatever) to sink a channel barge(s) in light of Luftwaffe air superiority is near suicidal. Air superiority did not exist. During July 1940 the Luftwaffe made a series of attacks on channel convoys, the results were disappointing. Not only did they fail to achieve any serious impact on the convoys but they suffered serious losses. CASUALTIES FOR JULY R.A.F. Fighter Command Hurricane: 33 destroyed, 17 damaged Pilots: 23 killed, 0 missing, 11 wounded Spitfi 34 destroyed, 24 damaged Pilots: 25 killed, 0 missing, 9 wounded Blenheim: 4 destroyed, 1 damaged Crew: 9 killed, 0 missing, 1 wounded Defiant: 6 destroyed, 1 damaged Crew: 10 killed, 0 missing, 2 wounded TOTAL AIRCRAFT: 77 destroyed, 43 damaged TOTAL PERSONNEL: 67 killed, 0 missing, 23 wounded The Luftwaffe Dornier Do 17: 39 destroyed, 13 damaged Personnel: 30 killed, 74 missing, 19 wounded Heinkel He 111: 32 destroyed, 3 damaged Personnel: 52 killed, 85 missing, 6 wounded Junkers Ju 88: 39 destroyed, 11 damaged Personnel: 52 killed, 67 missing, 11 wounded Junkers Ju 87: 13 destroyed, 11 damaged Personnel: 10 killed, 12 missing, 3 wounded Messerschmitt Bf 109: 48 destroyed, 14 damaged Personnel: 17 killed, 14 missing, 13 wounded Messerschmitt Bf 110: 18 destroyed, 4 damaged Personnel: 13 killed, 17 missing, 2 wounded Other: 27 destroyed, 1 damaged Personnel: 19 killed, 33 missing, 15 wounded TOTAL AIRCRAFT: 216 destroyed, 57 damaged TOTAL PERSONNEL: 193 killed, 302 missing, 69 wounded Peter G. Cooksley The Battle of Britain Ian Allan 1990 As for the barges the RAF simply attacked them in port. Many were sunk at anchor which caused significant damage to the German war economy. Keith |
#240
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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Mar 19, 1:18*pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Mar 19, 10:02*am, Jack Linthicum wrote: ... I would not call the ships sunk at Guadalcanal "shipping". They were warships. Chicago, Quincy, Vincennes, Canberra and Astoria all Cruisers.. They were sunk by IJN gunfire in NIGHT battles where aircraft from neither side participated. The Japanese Navy ruled the seas by night, the Cactus Air Force by day, until the battleship Washington arrived. From "Guadalcanal Diary" "I found out later that there had been forty Japanese planes attacking; that sixteen of these were shot down on the spot, and the remaining twenty-four destroyed by our fighters, one by one, as they streaked for home. The Japanese torpedo bombers had not gone after the warships, contenting themselves with merely strafing the transports as they passed by." One transport, the George F. Elliot, was hit by a crashing plane and lost. So you were a CIA analyst??? jsw Atlanta, Chicago, Canberra, Quincy, Vincennes and Juneau were torpedoed. What is your expertise? The torpedoes were the Type 93, a six thousand pound bulk launched from a surface ship. |
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