gun discharge in cockpit.

On Mar 30, 11:00 pm, Nomen Nescio wrote:

So, in a word, your family is Sarah Brady's worst nightmare.

Yep, and I couldn't be happier.

On Mar 31, 5:22 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

But it does define death. The wold is a more violent place almost
everywhere these days. Lots of things are contributing, but there is no
question about it, the availability of guns in the US is -- unquestionably --
responsible for the staggering murder rate which is unequalled amongst
"first world" nations. If you guys and the NRA are so interesed in
responsible gun wonership, then you should be supporting restrictions on
ownership, not opposing them.

Bertie

That statement is absolutely, positively, and profoundly false.

There are many countries with gun ownership rates similar to or higher
than the US, yet those have very low murder rates. The reverse is also
true.

Finland, Switzerland, and New Zealand have virtually identical gun
ownership rates to the US, and yet their murder rates are
significantly lower than those of surrounding countries.

There's no evidence that murder rates are higher in those countries
with higher levels of gun ownership. The only way to show such
relationships is cherry picking a few countries to make the
comparison.

Israel, with the highest gun ownership rate in the world, has a murder
rate 40% below Canada's.

Those of us that live in more rural areas know that the police always
arrive on the crime scene long after the crime has already been
committed. In the last two cases that I have called 911 the PA State
Police where here TWO HOURS after the initial phone call. At night
there may be two (2) troopers covering the entire county.

A gun -- pistol, shotgun, even rifle-- is the most effective means for
me and my family to defend our home, property, and selves.


Dan Mc

On Mar 30, 10:15 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Children are children.

Bertie

Unless you're a gun control advocate.

Then you make certain you include 18 year old victims of gang wars in
all your data.

Then you use the term "children".

The listener hears that word and thinks about 4 year old Sally in a
pinafore.

It's intentionally deceptive -- positively Orwellian.

Dan Mc

Dan wrote in
:

On Mar 31, 5:22 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

But it does define death. The wold is a more violent place almost
everywhere these days. Lots of things are contributing, but there is
no question about it, the availability of guns in the US is --
unquestionably -- responsible for the staggering murder rate which
is unequalled amongst "first world" nations. If you guys and the NRA
are so interesed in responsible gun wonership, then you should be
supporting restrictions on ownership, not opposing them.

Bertie

That statement is absolutely, positively, and profoundly false.

There are many countries with gun ownership rates similar to or higher
than the US, yet those have very low murder rates. The reverse is also
true.

Finland, Switzerland, and New Zealand have virtually identical gun
ownership rates to the US, and yet their murder rates are
significantly lower than those of surrounding countries.


That's because everyone in Switzerland and Finland are military reserve.
They don't own the guns, the state does.

There's no evidence that murder rates are higher in those countries
with higher levels of gun ownership. The only way to show such
relationships is cherry picking a few countries to make the
comparison.

Israel, with the highest gun ownership rate in the world, has a murder
rate 40% below Canada's.

Again, the military.....


Those of us that live in more rural areas know that the police always
arrive on the crime scene long after the crime has already been
committed. In the last two cases that I have called 911 the PA State
Police where here TWO HOURS after the initial phone call. At night
there may be two (2) troopers covering the entire county.

A gun -- pistol, shotgun, even rifle-- is the most effective means for
me and my family to defend our home, property, and selves.


I'll give you that for the simple reason that a jackhmaaer to your head
wouldn't change your mind, but it has zippy do dah to do with my assertion
that the ease of obtaining a gun in the US is the reason for the large
number of gun deaths there.


Bertie

Dan wrote in news:1f22b798-d3d0-4d46-9149-
:

On Mar 30, 10:15 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Children are children.

Bertie

Unless you're a gun control advocate.

Then you make certain you include 18 year old victims of gang wars in
all your data.



Then you use the term "children".

The listener hears that word and thinks about 4 year old Sally in a
pinafore.


~IOW only a nice littel white kid.

It's intentionally deceptive -- positively Orwellian.

No, it isn't. I consider a tennage gangster a kid too.


Even if you were to lower the age to 14 the stats would still be
horrific..


One's too many.



Bertie

On Mar 31, 9:07 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Finland, Switzerland, and New Zealand have virtually identical gun
ownership rates to the US, and yet their murder rates are
significantly lower than those of surrounding countries.

That's because everyone in Switzerland and Finland are military reserve.
They don't own the guns, the state does.

They have ready access to firearms?

Yes.

Israel, with the highest gun ownership rate in the world, has a murder
rate 40% below Canada's.

Again, the military.....

They have ready access to firearms?

Yes.

I'll give you that for the simple reason that a jackhmaaer to your head
wouldn't change your mind, but it has zippy do dah to do with my assertion
that the ease of obtaining a gun in the US is the reason for the large
number of gun deaths there.

Bertie

Lemme guess -- you watched Michael "not-really from Flint" Moore's
ridiculous "documentary"?

Every time I've purchased a gun, it has been through a Federally
Licensed Firearms Dealer.

After I complete a form, the store is required to do an FBI background
check (even though in one case I had just re-applied and received a
concealed carry permit from the sheriff across the street, walked over
to the sporting goods store, and had to be checked again -- maybe 10
minutes between checks -- oh and a $10 fee for each check).

They call a dedicated number, provide the required data, and someone
from the FBI tells them whether I am permitted to purchase a firearm.

Once that is clear I am able to hand over the $ in exchange for the
firearm.

How is that "easy"?


Dan Mc

On Mar 31, 9:18 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Then you use the term "children".

The listener hears that word and thinks about 4 year old Sally in a
pinafore.

~IOW only a nice littel white kid.

Exactly the intention of those applying the term.

Black males accounted for 66% of all firearm homicides over the last
decade. Black males aged 15-19 are 40 times more likely to be murdered
by firearm than white males of the same age. The disparity in risk
decreases slightly with age, as black males aged 20-24 were 35 times
more likely to suffer this fate than white males of the same age,
while those aged 25-34 were 23 times more likely than their white
counterparts to be murdered with a firearm.

I'll say it again -- this is not the segment of the population being
mentored on ranges, in hunter education classes, or in target
competitions.


Dan Mc

Dan wrote in
:

On Mar 31, 9:07 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Finland, Switzerland, and New Zealand have virtually identical gun
ownership rates to the US, and yet their murder rates are
significantly lower than those of surrounding countries.

That's because everyone in Switzerland and Finland are military
reserve. They don't own the guns, the state does.

They have ready access to firearms?

Yes.

Israel, with the highest gun ownership rate in the world, has a
murder rate 40% below Canada's.

Again, the military.....

They have ready access to firearms?

Yes.

I'll give you that for the simple reason that a jackhmaaer to your
head wouldn't change your mind, but it has zippy do dah to do with my
assertion that the ease of obtaining a gun in the US is the reason
for the large number of gun deaths there.

Bertie

Lemme guess -- you watched Michael "not-really from Flint" Moore's
ridiculous "documentary"?


I've seen it, I agree with a lot of what he has to say, but I think his
stuff is ill researched and reactiionary and generally does more more to
the causes he takes up by giving the likes of you piles of spurious
points to make.

Every time I've purchased a gun, it has been through a Federally
Licensed Firearms Dealer.

After I complete a form, the store is required to do an FBI background
check (even though in one case I had just re-applied and received a
concealed carry permit from the sheriff across the street, walked over
to the sporting goods store, and had to be checked again -- maybe 10
minutes between checks -- oh and a $10 fee for each check).

They call a dedicated number, provide the required data, and someone
from the FBI tells them whether I am permitted to purchase a firearm.

Once that is clear I am able to hand over the $ in exchange for the
firearm.

How is that "easy"?


It isn't.

The Columbine kids go through all that? Or the guy that shot my friends
daughter dead?




Bertie

Dan wrote in news:1ca16674-3714-4cdb-91e3-
:

On Mar 31, 9:18 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Then you use the term "children".

The listener hears that word and thinks about 4 year old Sally in a
pinafore.

~IOW only a nice littel white kid.

Exactly the intention of those applying the term.

Nom, it was your intention.You attributed that sentiment to me and I
meant no such thing.



Black males accounted for 66% of all firearm homicides over the last
decade. Black males aged 15-19 are 40 times more likely to be murdered
by firearm than white males of the same age. The disparity in risk
decreases slightly with age, as black males aged 20-24 were 35 times
more likely to suffer this fate than white males of the same age,
while those aged 25-34 were 23 times more likely than their white
counterparts to be murdered with a firearm.

I'll say it again -- this is not the segment of the population being
mentored on ranges, in hunter education classes, or in target
competitions.

But they have handguns.


Bertie

On Mar 31, 1:23 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

How is that "easy"?

It isn't.

The Columbine kids go through all that? Or the guy that shot my friends
daughter dead?

Bertie

I'm not an investigator into either case, so how can I say for sure?

But (complicated issues always have "buts" and "on the other hands" --
demagogues only want a slogan)...

A big problem is illegal trade in firearms -- no doubt.

But how will adding layers of laws and bureaucratic hoops deter the
behavior of people who -- by definition -- ignore the existing laws?

We don't even enforce the laws already on the books. The various gun
control wet dreams such as "gun a month," waiting periods, handgun
registration, etc are all aimed at the law abiding and will have NO
impact on criminals (For an example of demand driving supply, see
entry under "illegal drug trade.")

Have people purchase firearms legally and used them for illegal
activities?

Certainly.

Have people acquired firearms illegally and used them for illegal
activities?

Usually.

Replace "firearms" with "car", "airplane", "baseball bat",
"Fertilizer", "Drano," "sleeping pills" ad infinitum and the answers
are exactly the same.

The dirty little secret of the gun control agenda is that their logic
is only reasonable if we eliminate firearms from a society. That is
simply not going to happen, because the vast majority of firearms are
used for benign purposes.

For historical context consider this -- in 1920s there were NO federal
and few state controls on firearms, and yet the murder and suicide
rates were a small fraction of what they are today -- and that's
rates, not raw numbers.

The old saw about the "Wild West" is bull**** too -- there were far
fewer murders, suicides, rapes, and forcible entry in western
communities in the 19th century then we've expereinced in the late
20th through current century. The whole image is a fabrication of dime
store novelists.



Dan Mc