Landing without flaps

buttman wrote in news:a60b25cb-6a8a-4ecf-889e-
:



Either a pathetic cry for attention, or the best news I've heard all
day. Hoping for the latter.


Neither, fjukkwit.


Bertie

On Mar 8, 3:31 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
buttman wrote in news:a60b25cb-6a8a-4ecf-889e-
:



Either a pathetic cry for attention, or the best news I've heard all
day. Hoping for the latter.

Neither, fjukkwit.

Bertie

awww, sticking up for your boyfriend

at least now we now know which one wears the pants in this
relationship...

buttman wrote in news:592caddb-a61d-4cfe-a408-
:

On Mar 8, 3:31 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
buttman wrote in news:a60b25cb-6a8a-4ecf-889e-
:



Either a pathetic cry for attention, or the best news I've heard
all
day. Hoping for the latter.

Neither, fjukkwit.

Bertie

awww, sticking up for your boyfriend

at least now we now know which one wears the pants in this
relationship...


Nice try buttboi. don;'t yuo have an airplane to demolish somewhere?

Bertie

On Mar 8, 3:41 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
buttman wrote in news:592caddb-a61d-4cfe-a408-
:





On Mar 8, 3:31 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
buttman wrote in news:a60b25cb-6a8a-4ecf-889e-
:

Either a pathetic cry for attention, or the best news I've heard
all
day. Hoping for the latter.

Neither, fjukkwit.

Bertie

awww, sticking up for your boyfriend

at least now we now know which one wears the pants in this
relationship...

Nice try buttboi. don;'t yuo have an airplane to demolish somewhere?

Bertie

don';t yuo have a 8410 to fraudulently endorse somewhere?

buttman wrote in news:f7c7fb2b-5e30-4e34-9bf2-
:

On Mar 8, 3:41 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
buttman wrote in news:592caddb-a61d-4cfe-a408-
:





On Mar 8, 3:31 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
buttman wrote in news:a60b25cb-6a8a-4ecf-889e-
:

Either a pathetic cry for attention, or the best news I've heard
all
day. Hoping for the latter.

Neither, fjukkwit.

Bertie

awww, sticking up for your boyfriend

at least now we now know which one wears the pants in this
relationship...

Nice try buttboi. don;'t yuo have an airplane to demolish somewhere?

Bertie

don';t yuo have a 8410 to fraudulently endorse somewhere?


Is there anything you're good at? you sure ain't very good at this.




Bertie

On Mar 8, 2:28 pm, WJRFlyBoy wrote:
On Fri, 7 Mar 2008 22:37:55 -0800 (PST), Ken S. Tucker wrote:
Every pilot is elated to ascend following rotation,
but what should you do if your engine sputters
and quits while climbing at just a few hundred feet.

Off hand I'd suggest pushing the yoke forward to
use decent to prevent stall, because the stall can
happen real fast in that attitude, so be prepared.
((Don't freeze like a deer in head lights)).

Glide back to the runway or have knowledge of a
safe alternative and use it.
Ken

Wow, Ken, even *I* know this is idiotic.

My thoughts a Given no good alternative aside
from the runway, know the x-wind at T-O, do max
ascent into the wind as is normal, then if the engine
quit's (do radio) do a descending gentle 20 into the
x-wind, and come back and set the ship down.
I think the key is max ascent rate, that's insurance.
Ken

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in news:dc992240-db48-
:

On Mar 8, 2:28 pm, WJRFlyBoy wrote:
On Fri, 7 Mar 2008 22:37:55 -0800 (PST), Ken S. Tucker wrote:
Every pilot is elated to ascend following rotation,
but what should you do if your engine sputters
and quits while climbing at just a few hundred feet.

Off hand I'd suggest pushing the yoke forward to
use decent to prevent stall, because the stall can
happen real fast in that attitude, so be prepared.
((Don't freeze like a deer in head lights)).

Glide back to the runway or have knowledge of a
safe alternative and use it.
Ken

Wow, Ken, even *I* know this is idiotic.

My thoughts a Given no good alternative aside
from the runway, know the x-wind at T-O, do max
ascent into the wind as is normal, then if the engine
quit's (do radio) do a descending gentle 20 into the
x-wind, and come back and set the ship down.
I think the key is max ascent rate, that's insurance.

And who taught you that, ?


Bertie

In rec.aviation.student Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Michael Ash wrote in
:

In rec.aviation.student Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
One of the problems is you need to do more than 180 degrees, of
course. This can be minimised by turning into wind if you have some
across and if your runway is wide you've saved a bit of turn that way
as well, but you're probably going to have a bit of 'essing' to do on
finals and that's going to cost. That's where my friend lost it.

A good tow pilot will let the formation drift downwind (once obstacles
have been cleared, of course) so that in the event that the glider
behind him needs to do a 180 back to the runway, the turn into the
wind will get him more or less lined up.

Hmm, I used to tow ( a lot) and never heard this before. Good idea.

I probably should have qualified that a little more. "Some good tow
pilots", etc.

When I took my checkride there was a fair crosswind. On the second
takeoff, the tow pilot for whatever reason had us turned into the wind
instead of drifting with it. And of course this was the one where the
examiner pulled the rope on me at exactly 200ft AGL.

A quick 180 still left me quite far downwind, so it took a bit of
exciting maneuvering to get lined up, but there was still plenty of
room to spare. It would have been much simpler to start from the
downwind side, though.

Wel, you still probably would have been better off turning into wind
unless you were well upwind of the runway.

We were. It would have definitely been the wrong move there. If we were a
couple dozen feet off the centerline it's probably the better move, but we
had made a fairly significant turn by that point.

Of course even a medium-performance glider can do with ease at 200ft
what the average windmilling GA airplane will have difficulty with at
two or three times the altitude, so it's really a different world. But
when you don't want to change position too much, always turn into the
wind when you can.

Yeah, even a student in a 2-22 should be able to do it on th eworst day.

One of our instructors has done it in an ASK-21 (glide ratio about 34:1)
from 100ft. When you have that kind of performance, you end up just
bleeding off your extra speed in the 180 and come out of it at the same
altitude where you started. You'd probably meet an early demise trying
that in a 2-22 though.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

On Mar 8, 4:07 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
On Mar 8, 2:28 pm, WJRFlyBoy wrote:

On Fri, 7 Mar 2008 22:37:55 -0800 (PST), Ken S. Tucker wrote:
Every pilot is elated to ascend following rotation,
but what should you do if your engine sputters
and quits while climbing at just a few hundred feet.

Off hand I'd suggest pushing the yoke forward to
use decent to prevent stall, because the stall can
happen real fast in that attitude, so be prepared.
((Don't freeze like a deer in head lights)).

Glide back to the runway or have knowledge of a
safe alternative and use it.
Ken

Wow, Ken, even *I* know this is idiotic.

My thoughts a Given no good alternative aside
from the runway, know the x-wind at T-O, do max
ascent into the wind as is normal, then if the engine
quit's (do radio) do a descending gentle 20 into the
x-wind, and come back and set the ship down.
I think the key is max ascent rate, that's insurance.
Ken

So much nonsense. A 20 degree banked turn will make about a
half-mile diameter circle at glide speed. Since much more than 180
degrees of turn is needed (typical is the 90/270 turn, which adds up
to 360 degrees; trimming it some will bring it down to 300 degrees), a
half-mile diameter circle is a mile and a half around. 7500 feet to
travel just to turn around. At an optimistic 10:1 glide ratio, you'd
need 750 of altitude just for the turn. 172's, and many other
lightplanes, don't glide that well. The Grumman singles are notorious
sinkers. So are the short-wing Pipers.
So many have died doing this. As I said earlier, a controlled
collision is better than stalling and spinning, and stalling and
spinning is MUCH more likely in this situation.
You might get away with it over a long runway and at altitude.
You might get away with it in the crosswind in the circuit, since
you're already above 500' and turn the turn would be less. Off short
runways and at lower altitudes it's a waste of time. If there's much
of a tailwind, things could get ugly.

Dan

Michael Ash wrote in
:

In rec.aviation.student Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Michael Ash wrote in
:

In rec.aviation.student Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
One of the problems is you need to do more than 180 degrees, of
course. This can be minimised by turning into wind if you have some
across and if your runway is wide you've saved a bit of turn that
way as well, but you're probably going to have a bit of 'essing' to
do on finals and that's going to cost. That's where my friend lost
it.

A good tow pilot will let the formation drift downwind (once
obstacles have been cleared, of course) so that in the event that
the glider behind him needs to do a 180 back to the runway, the turn
into the wind will get him more or less lined up.

Hmm, I used to tow ( a lot) and never heard this before. Good idea.

I probably should have qualified that a little more. "Some good tow
pilots", etc.

When I took my checkride there was a fair crosswind. On the second
takeoff, the tow pilot for whatever reason had us turned into the
wind instead of drifting with it. And of course this was the one
where the examiner pulled the rope on me at exactly 200ft AGL.

A quick 180 still left me quite far downwind, so it took a bit of
exciting maneuvering to get lined up, but there was still plenty of
room to spare. It would have been much simpler to start from the
downwind side, though.

Wel, you still probably would have been better off turning into wind
unless you were well upwind of the runway.

We were. It would have definitely been the wrong move there. If we
were a couple dozen feet off the centerline it's probably the better
move, but we had made a fairly significant turn by that point.

Of course even a medium-performance glider can do with ease at 200ft
what the average windmilling GA airplane will have difficulty with
at two or three times the altitude, so it's really a different
world. But when you don't want to change position too much, always
turn into the wind when you can.

Yeah, even a student in a 2-22 should be able to do it on th eworst
day.

One of our instructors has done it in an ASK-21 (glide ratio about
34:1) from 100ft. When you have that kind of performance, you end up
just bleeding off your extra speed in the 180 and come out of it at
the same altitude where you started. You'd probably meet an early
demise trying that in a 2-22 though.


100 feet? Yeah. It was regularly done at 200. I got used to manuevering
down low early on anyhow. It wasn't that uncommon to reach less than 500
off an auto tow, and the LK was no Libelle..


bertie