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#21
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FAA Control tower Abandoned
You'd still try and get the ATIS before you got there wouldn't you? I
know at my home airport once the tower closes down the ATIS tells you it's class E until 0630 local and gives the CTAF and for further information contact New York App and gives their freq. Then the ASOS says it's piece and the whole thing repeats. If I return late and hear that I know the field is closed, if I get a standard ATIS broadcast I'd for sure call the tower and see what they had to say. I bet BOS was open, they have all sorts of approaches there and since PVD tends to be a reliever for BOS (esp for those living south of Boston) people wouldn't have minded too much. Of course SWA would have had the logistics problem of finding a place to park and people to handle them. Better to be 60 miles away from where you wanted to be than 200. Robert Roy Smith wrote: Newps wrote: I kept the tower open an extra hour or so Does that mean the Class D Airspace was in existence an extra hour too? What happens if I dutifully read my AFD and discover that the tower (and the associated CDAS) closes at midnight, so I figure when I arrive at 12:30 I don't need to talk to anybody. I fly in, enter the pattern, land, and taxi to the ramp without bothering to self-announce. Have I broken any regulations? |
#22
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FAA Control tower Abandoned
Does that mean the Class D Airspace was in existence an extra hour too?
What happens if I dutifully read my AFD and discover that the tower (and the associated CDAS) closes at midnight, so I figure when I arrive at 12:30 I don't need to talk to anybody. I fly in, enter the pattern, land, and taxi to the ramp without bothering to self-announce. Have I broken any regulations? In article , Robert Chambers wrote: You'd still try and get the ATIS before you got there wouldn't you? Maybe. If I didn't expect the tower to be open, I wouldn't expect there to be anything interesting to hear on the ATIS so maybe I wouldn't have bothered. I probably would have self-announced on the CTAF (in which case the tower would hear me and let me know they're still home), but that wasn't the question. I'm asking a nit-picking silly "let's dissect the FARs on usenet" kind of hypothetical question. If I just flew in and landed without talking to anybody, would I have broken any rules? |
#23
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FAA Control tower Abandoned
or Manchester. They already fly into Manchester so have arrangements
there. Still have issues with rounding up ground personnel, but after flying to PVD and back I would suspect they had the same issues at the origin airport... On Thu, 18 May 2006 11:32:58 GMT, Robert Chambers wrote: You'd still try and get the ATIS before you got there wouldn't you? I know at my home airport once the tower closes down the ATIS tells you it's class E until 0630 local and gives the CTAF and for further information contact New York App and gives their freq. Then the ASOS says it's piece and the whole thing repeats. If I return late and hear that I know the field is closed, if I get a standard ATIS broadcast I'd for sure call the tower and see what they had to say. I bet BOS was open, they have all sorts of approaches there and since PVD tends to be a reliever for BOS (esp for those living south of Boston) people wouldn't have minded too much. Of course SWA would have had the logistics problem of finding a place to park and people to handle them. Better to be 60 miles away from where you wanted to be than 200. Robert Roy Smith wrote: Newps wrote: I kept the tower open an extra hour or so Does that mean the Class D Airspace was in existence an extra hour too? What happens if I dutifully read my AFD and discover that the tower (and the associated CDAS) closes at midnight, so I figure when I arrive at 12:30 I don't need to talk to anybody. I fly in, enter the pattern, land, and taxi to the ramp without bothering to self-announce. Have I broken any regulations? |
#24
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FAA Control tower Abandoned
Roy Smith wrote: I'm asking a nit-picking silly "let's dissect the FARs on usenet" kind of hypothetical question. If I just flew in and landed without talking to anybody, would I have broken any rules? Haha, sorry what was I thinking? As long as the CTAF is the same as the tower frequency you probably would get some feedback from the tower staff if they were open later than normal. At BDR they have an agreement with Sikorsky Heliport (JSD) that whenever JSD is active it is on the BDR ATIS. Does this relieve the pilot of calling JSD before transiting their airspace? "well the Bridgeport ATIS didn't say JSD was active your honor". Personally regardless of what the ATIS says I call out to JSD just in case. They are very accommodating but the last thing I want to see is a blackhawk popping up in front of me doing max climb testing. Robert |
#25
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FAA Control tower Abandoned
"Roy Smith" wrote in message ... Does that mean the Class D Airspace was in existence an extra hour too? Nope. What happens if I dutifully read my AFD and discover that the tower (and the associated CDAS) closes at midnight, so I figure when I arrive at 12:30 I don't need to talk to anybody. I fly in, enter the pattern, land, and taxi to the ramp without bothering to self-announce. Have I broken any regulations? Yup. You've violated FAR 91.127(c): § 91.127 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class E airspace. (c) Communications with control towers. Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft to, from, through, or on an airport having an operational control tower unless two-way radio communications are maintained between that aircraft and the control tower. Communications must be established prior to 4 nautical miles from the airport, up to and including 2,500 feet AGL. However, if the aircraft radio fails in flight, the pilot in command may operate that aircraft and land if weather conditions are at or above basic VFR weather minimums, visual contact with the tower is maintained, and a clearance to land is received. If the aircraft radio fails while in flight under IFR, the pilot must comply with §91.185. Green Bay ATCT and TRACON normally close at 11:30PM and Minneapolis ARTCC takes the airspace. But when the Packers are hosting Monday Night Football there are usually a few dozen aircraft that want to depart after closing. On those occasions we stay open until 2AM and an appropriate NOTAM is issued. But it's only the operating hours of the tower and TRACON that are extended, the Class C airspace still vanishes at 11:30 so we become a towered field in a Class E surface area. |
#26
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FAA Control tower Abandoned
Robert Chambers wrote:
Roy Smith wrote: I'm asking a nit-picking silly "let's dissect the FARs on usenet" kind of hypothetical question. If I just flew in and landed without talking to anybody, would I have broken any rules? Haha, sorry what was I thinking? I don't know, but you still haven't answered my question. At BDR they have an agreement with Sikorsky Heliport (JSD) that whenever JSD is active it is on the BDR ATIS. I suspect JSD is the most commonly busted CDAS in the world. Most pilots don't even know it's there. A standard BFR question I give is to have the student point out all the airspace on a sectional they would transit on a trip from HPN to GON at 2000. Pretty much the only ones who mention JSD are pilots who used to be based at BDR. |
#27
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FAA Control tower Abandoned
"Bob Moore" wrote in message . 121... Ah...Steven....playing with words again? Never. One certainly can't land if he is prohibited from conducting the required Instrument Approach can he? Certainly not. From kstan92's earlier post..... I looked at the weather history on Weather Underground and PVD reported visibilities in the 0.1 and 0.2 range around midnight that night, below the standard ILS minimums for PVD. The Cat II and Cat III approaches (both to ry 5) are not authorized when the tower is not in operation according to the U.S. Terminal Procedures for PVD. Tower not in operation...can't approach...can't approach...can't land. As far as starting the approach with weather below minimums....sure he can.....just can't proceed past the final approach fix... From FAR 121 (b) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no pilot may continue an approach past the final approach fix, or where a final approach fix is not used, begin the final approach segment of an instrument approach procedure- (2) At airports within the United States and its territories or at U.S. military airports, unless the latest weather report for that airport issued by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, reports the visibility to be equal to or more than the visibility minimums prescribed for that procedure. So....he started the approach and discontinued it at the FAF. So...as he said, the FAA (rules) would not permit him to land under the existing wx conditions with the tower closed, so he missed the approach at the FAF. You and your stupid word games. What stupid word games? I don't have a former air carrier pilot's viewpoint on these things, but you do. Please explain to me the purpose in beginning an approach that cannot be continued beyond the FAF. |
#28
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FAA Control tower Abandoned
wrote in message ups.com... Steven P. McNicoll wrote: The FAA spokesman said at least one of the Southwest flights missed an approach. Did they begin an approach when the observed weather was below minimums? Probably not, I doubt they'd pull anything that blatant so short a time after the Midway incident. Maybe the fog was just rolling in; there must be more to that story. I can only find one of the flights on FlightAware, SWA946 departed BWI at 11:57pm EDT and landed back at BWI at 12:38am. It seems to have turned around a bit past halfway between Trenton and Manhattan. SWA1729 arrived at PVD (and I suppose landed) at 11:51pm and COA163 arrived at 1:36am that night. I thought there were only two SWA flights. If a SWA flight landed at PVD at 11:57 and another SWA flight returned to BWI before it was past Manhattan then what SWA flight missed an approach at PVD? |
#29
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FAA Control tower Abandoned
"Brien K. Meehan" wrote in message oups.com... The article conveniently neglects to mention that they departed 31 minutes late. Also, I've listened to recordings of the ATC dialogue. There were ample broadcasts by the tower and Center about the tower closing at 23:59 and regressing to Class E airspace. They mentioned a couple times that they'd stay open for the Southwest flight's approach, but they'd have to close if he went missed. The confusing thing is that the Southwest flight is calling itself 2020, which is scheduled between MCO and PVD. SWA946 is the flight between BWI and PVD. I don't know what the story is there. But the dialogue between the tower and the flight goes like this: 00:02:07 SWA2020: Tower, Southwest, uh, 2020 is missed approach. 00:02:16 PVD TWR: Southwest 2020 is on the go, climb and maintain 2000. 00:02:20 SWA2020: 2000, Southwest 2020. 00:02:35 PVD TWR: Southwest 2020, say alternate. 00:02:37 SWA2020: Ah, we're gonna have to go to Baltimore. 00:02:39 PVD TWR: Understand, Baltimore. 00:02:40 SWA2020: That's affirmative. 00:02:53 SWA2020: Do you want us to switch to Center, sir? 00:03:03 PVD TWR: Southwest 2020, turn left heading 240, radar vectors for Baltimore, climb and maintain two thousand five hundred. 00:03:12 SWA2020: Two thousand five hundred on the altitude, two four zero heading, Southwest 2020. 00:03:16 PVD TWR: Southwest 2020, contact Boston Center on 124.85. 00:03:24 SWA2020: 124.85, thank you sir. 00:04:41 SWA2020: Tower, Southwest 2020. 00:04:43 PVD TWR: Southwest 2020, Providence Tower. 00:04:45 SWA2020: Yeah, you guys gonna close it up and go home? 00:04:47 PVD TWR: Affirmative, Southwest 2020. 00:04:48 SWA2020: Okay. Yeah, our misseds are set up to where we need you guys to shoot 'em so, all right, thank you, good night. 00:04:53 PVD TWR: Roger. 00:05:25 PVD TWR: Attention all aircraft, Providence Tower is now closed, class Charlie services are no longer available. Class Echo airspace will be in effect until May 16, 2006 at 05:44 local. Good night. So yeah, the tower stayed open late, and the pilot believed he needed the tower open to shoot the approach again, and diverted to his planned alternate. Very interesting. They had to return to BWI because PVD was below minimums, not because the tower was abandoned or refused to stay open for them. Do you know what approach they had missed? |
#30
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FAA Control tower Abandoned
wrote in message oups.com... The AOPA airport directory includes this note: "Check NOTAMS, ry 5 to 23 closed for tkf and lndgs & used for full length taxiway & parking of overnight acft 8 pm to 8 am;" It would be hard for me to criticize the SWA pilots for not landing if those were the conditions . Old directory? I believe that refers to the former runway 5L/23R which is now taxiway V. |
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