THE DEADLY RAILROAD BRIDGES

Subject: THE DEADLY RAILROAD BRIDGES
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 2/3/04 6:38 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On 03 Feb 2004 04:02:17 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: THE DEADLY RAILROAD BRIDGES
From: Ed Rasimus

Flak suppression was a standard mission. It could be done by one
member in a flight of four, loaded with CBU being given the task or a
flight of four within a strike package of four or five flights having
the job. An area munition like CBU-24, 52 or 58 was very effective at
flak suppression. While it wouldn't insure a "gun kill" it was very
good at "gunner kill."

Defense suppression is always part of the task and ignoring the guns
is usually not a good tactic.

Ed Rasimus

Did they have flak towers in Nam?


Arthur Kramer

No flak towers. They had an integrated air defense system with radar
early warning, SA-2 SAMs, ground radar controlled interceptors with
guns and missiles, and a range of guns from 12.7/14.5 automatic
weapons through 23mm high rate cannon, 37/57mm radar and optically
guided AAA and 85mm/100mm big guns.

No flak towers, but lots of well coordinated flak.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Sounds worse than we had it. Most of the time we just had 88's to worry about.
Then there were those days when I thought it might be a good idea to get a
change of MOS to PX officer. Fat chance.(grin)




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Ed Rasimus wrote:
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Did they have flak towers in Nam?

No flak towers. They had an integrated air defense system with radar
early warning, SA-2 SAMs, ground radar controlled interceptors with
guns and missiles, and a range of guns from 12.7/14.5 automatic
weapons through 23mm high rate cannon, 37/57mm radar and optically
guided AAA and 85mm/100mm big guns.

No flak towers, but lots of well coordinated flak.

You sure know how to bring out the best in folks and thanks to you,
I've been enjoying Kramer's contributions once again. My hat's off
to ya, Ed!


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus wrote:

"Soften up the AA with fighter strafes".... First rule is never duel
with a gun bigger than your own.

Just cuirous, how do divebombers get around this rule? (e.g: Stukas
and SBD Dauntlesses in WW2, Skyraiders in Southeast Asia and
Warthogs in Southwest Asia).

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
...
Ed Rasimus wrote:

"Soften up the AA with fighter strafes".... First rule is never duel
with a gun bigger than your own.

Just cuirous, how do divebombers get around this rule? (e.g: Stukas
and SBD Dauntlesses in WW2, Skyraiders in Southeast Asia and
Warthogs in Southwest Asia).

I believe courage is the major factor.

The CO

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 09:28:54 +1030, "The CO"
wrote:


"Mike Marron" wrote in message
.. .
Ed Rasimus wrote:

"Soften up the AA with fighter strafes".... First rule is never duel
with a gun bigger than your own.

Just cuirous, how do divebombers get around this rule? (e.g: Stukas
and SBD Dauntlesses in WW2, Skyraiders in Southeast Asia and
Warthogs in Southwest Asia).

I believe courage is the major factor.

The CO

Courage is good and foolishness ranks a close second. Luck helps as
well. Throw in a bit of "big sky" theory and you get to do it
occasionally.

Virtually all tactical aircraft in SEA were "dive bombers". Skyraiders
worked close and were decidedly slow. They didn't regularly work big
gun areas, but occasionally in the Sandy (SAR) role were forced to.

I recount in When Thunder Rolled, an attack in which the 85mm
projectiles could be seen in flight, coming straight up the dive bomb
pass like glowing red footballs. There were also instances of losing
sight of the remainder of a tactical spread formation because of so
much air bursting flak between us.

Bottom line is that a stable, large caliber, high-rate-of-fire ground
gun is more likely to be successful at hitting its target than a
mobile, smaller caliber, fast-mover strafing. Change the weapon to a
string of half a dozen mk-82s or better yet, a quartet of CBU-52 and
the odds shift in favor of the airplane.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus wrote:
The CO" wrote:
"Mike Marron" wrote:

Just cuirous, how do divebombers get around this rule? (e.g: Stukas
and SBD Dauntlesses in WW2, Skyraiders in Southeast Asia and
Warthogs in Southwest Asia).

I believe courage is the major factor.

The CO

Courage is good and foolishness ranks a close second. Luck helps as
well. Throw in a bit of "big sky" theory and you get to do it
occasionally.

Courage, foolishness, luck, big sky theory and perhaps temporary
insanity? Watching a bud go down in a ball of flames one too many
times and I could understand how that would be enough to flip a switch
and cause the (previously sane) warrior to instantly make peace with
the gods. Then tighten up his grip on the stick and roll in through a
murderous hail of gunfire -- death be damned!

From: Mike Marron


Ed Rasimus wrote:
The CO" wrote:
"Mike Marron" wrote:

Just cuirous, how do divebombers get around this rule? (e.g: Stukas
and SBD Dauntlesses in WW2, Skyraiders in Southeast Asia and
Warthogs in Southwest Asia).

I believe courage is the major factor.

The CO

Courage is good and foolishness ranks a close second. Luck helps as
well. Throw in a bit of "big sky" theory and you get to do it
occasionally.

Courage, foolishness, luck, big sky theory and perhaps temporary
insanity? Watching a bud go down in a ball of flames one too many
times and I could understand how that would be enough to flip a switch
and cause the (previously sane) warrior to instantly make peace with
the gods. Then tighten up his grip on the stick and roll in through a
murderous hail of gunfire -- death be damned!

You have been watching too many low budget movies.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

(B2431) wrote:
From: Mike Marron wrote:

Courage, foolishness, luck, big sky theory and perhaps temporary
insanity? Watching a bud go down in a ball of flames one too many
times and I could understand how that would be enough to flip a switch
and cause the (previously sane) warrior to instantly make peace with
the gods. Then tighten up his grip on the stick and roll in through a
murderous hail of gunfire -- death be damned!

You have been watching too many low budget movies.

Don't take my word for it (frankly Scarlett...) Drop Ed or any other
pilot who flew in combat a private email and ask them just how
"far-fetched" the scenario above is....

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

From: Mike Marron


(B2431) wrote:
From: Mike Marron wrote:

Courage, foolishness, luck, big sky theory and perhaps temporary
insanity? Watching a bud go down in a ball of flames one too many
times and I could understand how that would be enough to flip a switch
and cause the (previously sane) warrior to instantly make peace with
the gods. Then tighten up his grip on the stick and roll in through a
murderous hail of gunfire -- death be damned!

You have been watching too many low budget movies.

Don't take my word for it (frankly Scarlett...) Drop Ed or any other
pilot who flew in combat a private email and ask them just how
"far-fetched" the scenario above is....


I am quite sure they can speak for themselves.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Thing about a fighter bomber is its going lots faster than a B26
Marauder and it's not flying straight and level. AMAF the rule was
keep moving and never get predictable. it took a while to wrok out
just how to flt a snaky erratic diving approach to the release point,
never staying in one attitude for more than say 4 seconds max while
usually staying loaded up around 4 G but it could be done, and still
hit the target. On a one pass haul ass speed and motion was a bit
easier. Getting in close for troop support one had to really move it
around because the enemy doctrine was everybody shoot at the fighters.
Strafinf a gun wasn' really a good idea because the way the ballistics
works he's got two chances at you and you got one at him - he'll hit
you with the bullet falling through your flight path and very soon as
you close in it'll be rising up through the flight path. Weapon of
choice back then was the CBU52 - full of grapefruit-sized bomblets.
The twin 23 was very ubiquitous - and could put up a lot of shells
quickly. Didn't shoot very high but it was very mobile and they had a
ton of them. We had one the Army gave us there at DaNang. It was all
too easy to track the planes on downwind as they flew past. All our
FNG new crews got to try tracking the planes to get the point of
jinking across. FWIW in protected areas both north and south the flak
could look like the naval scenes from 'The Battle for Okinawa' where
the USN is hosing Kamikazes - except this was from the other side. My
WingCO at Bitburg had the right idea - a thousand mile standoff
missile.
Walt BJ