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#21
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
Cox wrote: If you do manage to get out of a spinning aircraft, I wouls estimate close to a 100% better chance of survival if you have a chute on. I sure would hate to be the person who was able to get out of the so called "impossible aircraft to get out of" only to find they didn't have a chute on. Wear a chute, what can it hurt? Adam Adam Cope www.dcaerobatics.com 703-623-9445 I totally agree with this. The " you'll never get out of this airplane because of the door" routine is something I've heard repeated many times through my career teaching aerobatics. My standard answer and "lecture" on this issue is as follows; For spins, even if the regulations don't call for chutes, I always recommend wearing them. I always had chutes available for whatever aircraft we were using for spin training. A lot has been written and said about the difficulties involved in getting out of Aerobats, Citabrias, and Decathlons. There is no doubt that especially with a structural failure, exiting one of these aircraft could be iffy. That's why any good instructor not only supplies chutes for spin training, but as well performs a complete egress brief specific to aircraft type to the point where once the bail out call has been made, each occupant knows what the exit procedure will be. This is especially critical in tandem aircraft. I should mention that even with the most complete egress briefing, there is STILL an element of doubt that a successful exit from these airplanes can be executed in the time available under extreme g in a post structural failure. The factors involving a successful bail out are so diverse that there are just no guarantees. In the Pitts S2 for example, if the upper wing fails, the flying wires will most likely remain attached and the upper wing will beat the occupants to death before a bail out can be achieved. All this being considered, the use of chutes is not only recommended, but in my opinion a necessary part of every non- standard flight whether it be aerobatics or spin training. The bottom line is that wearing a chute gives you a fighting chance for survival. Not wearing a chute gives you no chance at all. Its a smart pilot who takes advantage of all available options! Dudley Henriques |
#22
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ... Cox wrote: If you do manage to get out of a spinning aircraft, I wouls estimate close to a 100% better chance of survival if you have a chute on. I sure would hate to be the person who was able to get out of the so called "impossible aircraft to get out of" only to find they didn't have a chute on. Wear a chute, what can it hurt? Adam Adam Cope www.dcaerobatics.com 703-623-9445 I totally agree with this. The " you'll never get out of this airplane because of the door" routine is something I've heard repeated many times through my career teaching aerobatics. My standard answer and "lecture" on this issue is as follows; For spins, even if the regulations don't call for chutes, I always recommend wearing them. I always had chutes available for whatever aircraft we were using for spin training. A lot has been written and said about the difficulties involved in getting out of Aerobats, Citabrias, and Decathlons. There is no doubt that especially with a structural failure, exiting one of these aircraft could be iffy. That's why any good instructor not only supplies chutes for spin training, but as well performs a complete egress brief specific to aircraft type to the point where once the bail out call has been made, each occupant knows what the exit procedure will be. This is especially critical in tandem aircraft. I should mention that even with the most complete egress briefing, there is STILL an element of doubt that a successful exit from these airplanes can be executed in the time available under extreme g in a post structural failure. The factors involving a successful bail out are so diverse that there are just no guarantees. In the Pitts S2 for example, if the upper wing fails, the flying wires will most likely remain attached and the upper wing will beat the occupants to death before a bail out can be achieved. All this being considered, the use of chutes is not only recommended, but in my opinion a necessary part of every non- standard flight whether it be aerobatics or spin training. The bottom line is that wearing a chute gives you a fighting chance for survival. Not wearing a chute gives you no chance at all. Its a smart pilot who takes advantage of all available options! Dudley Henriques Dudley, Could you give some specifics about exiting a citabria? I used to do aerobatics in one and always wore a chute. I never suspected that I would have trouble exiting if I pulled the door hinge pins, I thought the door would vanish and leave me a big hole to climb out. The only serious instructor I had was in a Stearman and he never discussed exiting in case of trouble. Obviously I was completely ignorant. Better to learn late than never. |
#23
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
On Mar 23, 1:36 pm, "Cox" wrote:
If you do manage to get out of a spinning aircraft, I wouls estimate close to a 100% better chance of survival if you have a chute on. I sure would hate to be the person who was able to get out of the so called "impossible aircraft to get out of" only to find they didn't have a chute on. Wear a chute, what can it hurt? And have quick release pins on the doors with the handles -inside- |
#24
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
Our procedure was to yank the QR pins and turn the handle;
Champion may well have improved the quick release doors by now. Its been a long time ago for me in the Citabria :-) I would suggest a good look through the POH and a brief from the airplane operator for the current scoop on this. DH john hawkins wrote: "Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ... Cox wrote: If you do manage to get out of a spinning aircraft, I wouls estimate close to a 100% better chance of survival if you have a chute on. I sure would hate to be the person who was able to get out of the so called "impossible aircraft to get out of" only to find they didn't have a chute on. Wear a chute, what can it hurt? Adam Adam Cope www.dcaerobatics.com 703-623-9445 I totally agree with this. The " you'll never get out of this airplane because of the door" routine is something I've heard repeated many times through my career teaching aerobatics. My standard answer and "lecture" on this issue is as follows; For spins, even if the regulations don't call for chutes, I always recommend wearing them. I always had chutes available for whatever aircraft we were using for spin training. A lot has been written and said about the difficulties involved in getting out of Aerobats, Citabrias, and Decathlons. There is no doubt that especially with a structural failure, exiting one of these aircraft could be iffy. That's why any good instructor not only supplies chutes for spin training, but as well performs a complete egress brief specific to aircraft type to the point where once the bail out call has been made, each occupant knows what the exit procedure will be. This is especially critical in tandem aircraft. I should mention that even with the most complete egress briefing, there is STILL an element of doubt that a successful exit from these airplanes can be executed in the time available under extreme g in a post structural failure. The factors involving a successful bail out are so diverse that there are just no guarantees. In the Pitts S2 for example, if the upper wing fails, the flying wires will most likely remain attached and the upper wing will beat the occupants to death before a bail out can be achieved. All this being considered, the use of chutes is not only recommended, but in my opinion a necessary part of every non- standard flight whether it be aerobatics or spin training. The bottom line is that wearing a chute gives you a fighting chance for survival. Not wearing a chute gives you no chance at all. Its a smart pilot who takes advantage of all available options! Dudley Henriques Dudley, Could you give some specifics about exiting a citabria? I used to do aerobatics in one and always wore a chute. I never suspected that I would have trouble exiting if I pulled the door hinge pins, I thought the door would vanish and leave me a big hole to climb out. The only serious instructor I had was in a Stearman and he never discussed exiting in case of trouble. Obviously I was completely ignorant. Better to learn late than never. |
#25
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
On 2007-02-28 19:41:14 -0800, john smith said:
In article . net, "Todd W. Deckard" wrote: Why would you say this? The door would be fairly easy to open in a spin. In a high speed loss of control it might be very difficult to overcome aerodynamic resistance but it is possible to open a forward hinged door and force it open enough to squeeze out at even 100kts in straight flight. With a modern canopy you stand a chance of a survivable deployment at even a few hundred feet. I wouldn't be too positive about those statements. I have over 300 freefalls and 25 hours of acro in a Citabria. The Citabria only has one door... on the right side. In a right spin, the rate of descent is still going to be about 800 fpm with an indicated airspeed of 45-50 mph. That's quite and airload on the inside turn side of the airframe. Add to that centrifugal forces and getting through the doorway after jettisoning the door will be a challenging proposition. You have two sets of seatbelts to release, a headset to remove and a body with a parachute attached to fit through the doorway. When you exit you will be on the inside side of the airplane, which you have to clear before you pull the D-ring. Tic-toc, the clock is winding down as fast as the altimeter. I have knowledge of only one acro pilot who successfully exited a Decathlon. There was a guy down in Borrego Springs who managed to bail out when his Citabria would not recover. Checking the wreckage later he found the seatbelt from the rear seat had wrapped itself around the stick. He could have sworn he had secured that thing. -- Waddling Eagle World Famous Flight Instructor |
#26
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
I have an acquaintance that kicked his way out the windshield of a Citabria,
after the wings folded up against the fuselage. Karl "Curator" N185KG "john hawkins" wrote in message et... "Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ... Cox wrote: If you do manage to get out of a spinning aircraft, I wouls estimate close to a 100% better chance of survival if you have a chute on. I sure would hate to be the person who was able to get out of the so called "impossible aircraft to get out of" only to find they didn't have a chute on. Wear a chute, what can it hurt? Adam Adam Cope www.dcaerobatics.com 703-623-9445 I totally agree with this. The " you'll never get out of this airplane because of the door" routine is something I've heard repeated many times through my career teaching aerobatics. My standard answer and "lecture" on this issue is as follows; For spins, even if the regulations don't call for chutes, I always recommend wearing them. I always had chutes available for whatever aircraft we were using for spin training. A lot has been written and said about the difficulties involved in getting out of Aerobats, Citabrias, and Decathlons. There is no doubt that especially with a structural failure, exiting one of these aircraft could be iffy. That's why any good instructor not only supplies chutes for spin training, but as well performs a complete egress brief specific to aircraft type to the point where once the bail out call has been made, each occupant knows what the exit procedure will be. This is especially critical in tandem aircraft. I should mention that even with the most complete egress briefing, there is STILL an element of doubt that a successful exit from these airplanes can be executed in the time available under extreme g in a post structural failure. The factors involving a successful bail out are so diverse that there are just no guarantees. In the Pitts S2 for example, if the upper wing fails, the flying wires will most likely remain attached and the upper wing will beat the occupants to death before a bail out can be achieved. All this being considered, the use of chutes is not only recommended, but in my opinion a necessary part of every non- standard flight whether it be aerobatics or spin training. The bottom line is that wearing a chute gives you a fighting chance for survival. Not wearing a chute gives you no chance at all. Its a smart pilot who takes advantage of all available options! Dudley Henriques Dudley, Could you give some specifics about exiting a citabria? I used to do aerobatics in one and always wore a chute. I never suspected that I would have trouble exiting if I pulled the door hinge pins, I thought the door would vanish and leave me a big hole to climb out. The only serious instructor I had was in a Stearman and he never discussed exiting in case of trouble. Obviously I was completely ignorant. Better to learn late than never. |
#27
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
On 2007-03-23 08:33:20 -0700, "karl gruber" said:
I have an acquaintance that kicked his way out the windshield of a Citabria, after the wings folded up against the fuselage. Karl "Curator" N185KG Amazing what you can do with the proper motivation. -- Waddling Eagle World Famous Flight Instructor |
#28
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 19:42:32 -0700, C J Campbell
wrote: On 2007-03-23 08:33:20 -0700, "karl gruber" said: I have an acquaintance that kicked his way out the windshield of a Citabria, after the wings folded up against the fuselage. Karl "Curator" N185KG Amazing what you can do with the proper motivation. With some forms of motivation being far more effective than others. Strange the thoughts you can have. The last conscious thoughts I had as I watched the top of the SUV disappear out of sight above the top of windsheild in the Trans Am were, "Boy, I'll bet this is gonna hurt". (this was happening at 50 MPH Plus). Then I was thinking, I can't see a thing with all this dust from the air bags, followed by "I think I'm spinning through two solid lanes full of traffic. Maybe it's better I can't see out". Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair) www.rogerhalstead.com |
#29
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
C J Campbell wrote:
On 2007-03-23 08:33:20 -0700, "karl gruber" said: I have an acquaintance that kicked his way out the windshield of a Citabria, after the wings folded up against the fuselage. Karl "Curator" N185KG Amazing what you can do with the proper motivation. I think the important statistic would be to look at the fatal accidents where the pilot was wearing a parachute, and see how many are unstrapped and trying to get out when they hit the ground. In the searches I have done, I don't remember ever seeing this (although I was focusing on Pitts accidents. Mike |
#30
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
"pittss1c" wrote in message
... C J Campbell wrote: On 2007-03-23 08:33:20 -0700, "karl gruber" ... Amazing what you can do with the proper motivation. I think the important statistic would be to look at the fatal accidents where the pilot was wearing a parachute, and see how many are unstrapped and trying to get out when they hit the ground. In the searches I have done, I don't remember ever seeing this (although I was focusing on Pitts accidents. Mike I didn't find any of those. And, I was wrong. It _is_ possible to get out of a Cessna 150/172 - even a Piper PA-28 without a quick release door. (see below) Notes - most accidents involving Cessna's and parachutes are from jump operations - you end up plowing though a lot of reports where the word "parachute" appears but has nothing to do with the cause / outcome. I ran into several fatal accidents where the occupants of Citabria's were not wearing 'chutes while doing aerobatics. Several fatal accidents with and without parachutes happened from aerobatics at low altitudes. Some where the occupants got out but not in time - there was no indicaton if they took too long to start to get out or had too much trouble getting out (These were Pitts in spins iirc) . In one, the student made it out, but the instructor was still belted in (Citabria) Then there was the guy who bailed out of a 150 when he ran out of gas on final... Excerpts from accident reports: Cessna 172: "The pilot, Hodelin F. Rene, stated he arrived at Flowers Air Charter, on December 3, 1994, at about 1000, and was introduced to his passenger by Mr. Flowers. Miss Pascale stated she wanted to take several pictures of a couple of houses in the Cutler Ridge area, and drew a circle around the area on an aeronautical chart. He went to Terminal One, taxied his airplane to Flowers Air Charter, and did a preflight inspection. The passenger did her own preflight inspection, and asked several questions about the operations of the right passenger door. They departed Opa Locka Airport and flew to the area previously marked on the map. He leveled off at 5,000 feet agl, slowed the airplane to 70 mph, and asked her where she wanted to go. She stated she would look outside to make sure. A short time later, she stated she was going to take off the headset and move the seat back so she could get a good shot. He then heard what sounded like a yell, felt wind and noise simultaneously in the cabin area. He looked towards the sound, she was already partly out of the airplane, and when their eyes met, she jumped out. "I was in total amazement, shock and just froze for a moment, not knowing what to do. I could not believe what had happened. After about ten seconds, I called ATC and requested a descent as I struggled to close the door." He then informed ATC that he would like to declare an emergency, that his passenger had jumped out of the airplane." PIPER PA-28-180: "THE PILOT HAD TRANSMITTED A DISTRESS CALL THAT THE AIRPLANE WAS HAVING FUEL PRESSURE PROBLEMS. THE AIRPLANE WAS SQUAWKING TRANSPONDER CODE 7700. IT THEN DISAPPEARED FROM RADAR. THE PILOT HAD EARLIER LEFT A MESSAGE TO HIS WIFE ON A TELEPHONE ANSWERING MACHINE THAT 'I DON'T WANT TO LIVE ANY MORE...' GROUND WITNESSES OBSERVED A MAN PARACHUTE FROM AN AIRPLANE IN THE AREA AT THE TIME OF THE ACCIDENT. THE PILOT'S BODY WAS FOUND ON DECEMBER 21, 1994. The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows: THE PILOT'S INTENTIONAL DECISION TO ABANDON THE AIRPLANE AND ALLOW IT TO FLY UNATTENDED." Cessna 150E: "THE PILOT WAS COMPLETING A CROSS-COUNTRY TRIP WHEN HE LOST ENGINE POWER ON FINAL APPROACH. ACCORDING TO THE FAA, HE TURNED THE AIRPLANE AWAY FROM THE AIRPORT AND PARACHUTED FROM THE AIRCRAFT AT 'APPROXIMATELY 560 FEET AGL. THE PARACHUTE OPENED JUST PRIOR TO GROUND CONTACT, AND THE AIRPLANE CRASHED IN THE BACKYARD OF A RESIDENCE.' THE PILOT STATED TO THE FAA THAT HE THOUGHT HE HAD RUN OUT OF FUEL. THE FAA ALSO FOUND THAT, 'THE AIRPLANE HAD RECEIVED DAMAGE TO ITS WINGS WHILE TAXIING ONE DAY PRIOR TO THE ACCIDENT.' THE PILOT 'HAD APPARENTLY CONDUCTED HIS OWN REPAIRS TO THE RIGHT WING' THAT WAS DAMAGED. The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows: AN INFLIGHT COLLISION WITH TERRAIN DURING AN UNCONTROLLED DESCENT AFTER THE PILOT PARACHUTED FROM THE AIRPLANE. CONTRIBUTING TO THE ACCIDENT WERE FUEL EXHAUSTION AND THE PILOT'S DISREGARD FOR EMERGENCY PROCEDURES. " -- Geoff The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate. |
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