Oshkosh arrivals

What sort of program does the Experimental Aircraft Association have
in place to reduce the death toll resulting from AirVenture
attendance?

Alot of times, these aren't the sort of things EAA can do anything
about. What can EAA do about a stall/spin on short final? That's been
happening since shortly after the Wright Bros, and I suspect it always
will.
You can make all the rules you want, but showing up unprepared is hard
to prevent. Sanction and punish, sure maybe (but very much NOT likely),
but not prevent.

I just don't fathom how you can fly to this without at least reading
the NOTAM...

One other story told by Jay: apparantly they heard two pilots flying
together on the air-air frequency; one was trying to download the NOTAM
onto their PDA, and then trying to read it to the other pilot...?!?!

Oy vay!

"Jim Logajan" wrote

"EAA spokesman Dick Knapinski says the homebuilt airplane landed short of
the runway at Wittman Regional Airport.

This is the first fatal crash at the air show in a long time. "The weather
conditions were just about perfect, It was perfectly clear, Very little,
if
any, wind at the time. It has to be at least 15 years, just a considerable
length of time since something like this occurred at the airport," said
Knapinski."

Although I would not expect any less, they are splitting hairs. If you
counted maneuvering in the pattern, one year (I think '99) there were two
separate fatal stall spin crashes within a mile or two from the airport.
--
Jim in NC

wrote

One other story told by Jay: apparantly they heard two pilots flying
together on the air-air frequency; one was trying to download the NOTAM
onto their PDA, and then trying to read it to the other pilot...?!?!

I'll bet I heard at least one pilot an hour that had obviously not read the
NOTAM. Some more slipped through following the leader that I had not
identified, I suspect. Shoot, as I was sitting near my computer last night,
it was nearly 10:00 PM, and I had not closed the live ATC link. I heard
someone trying to raise OSHKOSH tower, with no luck, of course. Someone
finally came (from the ground, on a handheld, I think) on and told them that
they were closed for the night. Is that clueless, or what?

Others had come in (earlier), announced, and were not where they were
supposed to be, and not following procedures, and the controller asked if
they had checked in earlier, according to the notam. No, they answered. He
fit them in, anyway. I would have told them to climb to above pattern
altitude, and to go to Ripon, land and figure it out. Buttheads!
--
Jim in NC

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
I find that statistic difficult to accept; perhaps I don't exactly
understand what you mean by "the same proportion." (Are you saying
that 50% of airmen have two digit IQs?)

I would be surprised if it's very far from that. I've met plenty of dumb
pilots. I'd guess the majority of GA pilots know little beyond the rote
knowledge required to pass the written exam and oral, and the limited
physical coordination required to keep a Cessna 172 under control.

If you extend the survey to include airline/cargo pilots and business
aviation, I suspect the quality improves somewhat. But even so, I have seen
in every profession a fair number of people who somehow met the minimum
qualifications, and yet really don't know how to do their job right. I
can't imagine that aviation has somehow escaped that truism.

[...]
Now, it would surprise me if the "10 deaths per year", or even the "6
deaths
per year" claim is supported by historical data.

I thought the time period under discussion was the week or so during
AirVenture, not per year.

Last I checked, AirVenture happens only once a year.

[...]
Where did you get that figure? The total number of GA ACCIDENTS in
2004 was 1,413, and the total number of fatal accidents was 290
totaling 510 fatalities.

See my other post.

given the huge amount of GA traffic at Oshkosh, I'm not even convinced
that 6
or 10 deaths per year is all that out of line with the overall GA
population.

First, we should be discussing the number of FATAL ACCIDENTS occurring
at AirVenture, not the number of FATALITIES (for it is an accident
that generates a news story or NTSB report).

Why? The two are roughly proportional, and the numbers posted in this
thread about the issue are fatalities. I'm just trying to keep it
consistent.

[...]
The general public bestows a smattering of god status on pilots; after
all, we do hold human lives in our hands to a much greater extent than
say, a bus driver.

Who does? Not me. Not you (unless you've got an airline job I don't know
about).

[...]
That, and the fact that the velocities involved and unforgiving nature
of aviation tend to make what would be a routine matter to a motorist
(say engine failure), a life and death emergency for air travel.

As I already wrote in my post.

Similar advancements have not made it to aviation,

With the obvious exception of the ballistic parachute, XM real-time
weather information, GPS navigation, ....

Note the use of the word "similar". That is, with respect to
crash-worthiness. None of the technologies you mention help make a crash
more survivable. Most do very little to even address the *cause* of
crashes, if at all. Even the ballistic parachute isn't something that would
have helped in most crashes.

[...]
Like I said at the beginning of this follow up article, the general
population doesn't have to pass a written and practical examination
that airmen must.

You don't really need to know much to pass those tests.

I believe that sets airmen apart from the general
population, just as college grads are a considerably unique group
compared to the general population.

And again, I disagree that college graduates are "a considerably unique
group". Other than the piece of paper they posess, they are basically the
same as everyone else, especially if you are looking mainly near the middle
of the curve (outlyers always complicate things). I have met plenty of
people who graduated from college without learning a damn thing, and I've
met plenty of people who never went to college who still know quite a lot.

But, my point is, that here we have pilots making a rather large
national statement (AirVenture), but killing themselves in the public
view while doing it. That can't be good PR for GA.

So what? No crash is good PR for GA. And yet, pilots keep crashing.

My point is simply that you people who are surprised and dismayed crashes
happen at Oshkosh need a reality check. Especially about the "surprised"
part.

Pete

Larry Dighera wrote:




What can be done to increase their level of competency?

They need to fly. The average guy flies 50 hours a year, or less, and
packs up his ****box experimental and heads for OSH. It is inevitable
that carnage ensues. I'm sure the EAA chapters are different around the
country but I get a good laugh when I think of our local one. Here are
people who are average or better tinkerers. Some of the stuff they
build is pretty good. A lot is crap. These people are not pilots, they
are builders. The worst thing that can happen to these guys is they
actually finish their plane. Good Lord, now what? I guess I better fly
this tractor I just spent 15 years building. Meanwhile he never left
the ground once in an airplane in that time. What? It flies? I better
fly this thing to Oshkosh. Class C airspace? What the hell is that?
These people are clueless and have no more business flying anywhere near
a populated city than you or I do driving in the Indy 500 because we
drove on the freeway in our minivan.


Would an FAA
crackdown on the CFIs who signed off on errant airmens' last flight
review help motivate CFIs to provide them with the training they
apparently need?

I don't think so. If people don't fly regularly there's not much the
CFI's can do.

Kyle Boatright wrote:


Next, there is the idiot factor. I believe the FAA can address some of
this. For example, the person who flys the approach completely wrong,
doesn't follow the NOTAM, etc. Those folks should get pulled aside after
their hopefully safe arrival, and the FAA should politely make sure they
have their stuff together...
- Show me your copy of the NOTAM.
- Why didn't you follow the procedures?
- etc.

I've never been to OSH, but based on what I've seen at other places the
FAA can't dream of having the manpower available to have a chat with
every pilot that screws up the arrival.

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 09:10:23 -0600, Newps wrote
in ::

These people are not pilots, they
are builders. The worst thing that can happen to these guys is they
actually finish their plane. Good Lord, now what? I guess I better fly
this tractor I just spent 15 years building. Meanwhile he never left
the ground once in an airplane in that time. What? It flies? I better
fly this thing to Oshkosh. Class C airspace? What the hell is that?
These people are clueless and have no more business flying anywhere near
a populated city than you or I do driving in the Indy 500 because we
drove on the freeway in our minivan.

That was my suspicion also, but I didn't want to phrase it as
colorfully as you, least someone be offended.

With all due respect, what you SHOULD do and what really happens at Oshkosh
are two very separate and distinct things.

Jim


wrote in message
oups.com...


With all due respect, the last thing you want to do now is approach
Ripon from the north or east and THEN turn up the tracks.

On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 21:24:13 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:


It saddens me to hear that depressing news coming from an experienced
Air Traffic Controller. Their misdeeds reflect badly on the rest of
their fellows in the eyes of the public.

What can be done to increase their level of competency? Would an FAA
crackdown on the CFIs who signed off on errant airmens' last flight
review help motivate CFIs to provide them with the training they
apparently need?

Don't get me wrong. I don't advocate sicking the Administrator's
minions on any airmen, but I'm unable to conceive of a better way to
sharpen up those airmen who really need it to be safe.

The certificate the FAA issues is only a "license to learn". They and
the CFI's naturally have to leave most of the compentency issues up to
the individual pilot to step up to the plate and take this "business"
of flying seriously. To practice, read, study, and think critically
about this privilege the government has given them.

But as a low time aviator I am always questioning how to gain the
experience. I love the idea of flying, but more importantly for me, as
it is with any endeavor I undertake, I want to, no...I NEED to be
exceptional at this.

But these questions always arise every time I call out "clear prop":

With limited resources that can only allow me to fly 5 or 6 hours a
month, am I deluding myself that I can ever be truly competent? What
are my limitations? How will I ever know them unless I actually get to
the edge of those limitations? And if I miscalculate even the
slightest amount it could mean disaster.

As I gain more experience, the thing I want to learn most is in
understanding how far to go to expand the experience. To stick the
proverbial toe in the water further and further. But how far?

Those are the questions I have.

The training has to be self-motivated. I don't think this is something
that can be regulated by the FAA or by the CFI's when it comes to
flying, especially for pleasure.

The pliot HAS to take the responsibility. I don't think this level of
commitment is something that can be taught. It has to come from the
individual.

Unfortunately, according to the what the statistics bear out, it
appears that there are some "certificated pilots" that do not have the
level of commtiment that others have.

"Peter Duniho" wrote

Now, it would surprise me if the "10 deaths per year", or even the "6
deaths
per year" claim is supported by historical data. But even so, with
fatalities running around 2000/year (a little less recently), given the
huge
amount of GA traffic at Oshkosh, I'm not even convinced that 6 or 10
deaths
per year is all that out of line with the overall GA population.

I started looking back at the past few years, and it looks like I jumped the
gun when I said about 6 deaths per year.

Some years it is only a couple, while some years it is that high.
--
Jim in NC