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#21
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Kinda sad (Thread drifting as usual)
In article ,
"Rich S." wrote: "Steve Hix" wrote in message ... In article , "Rich S." wrote: Wasn't even thinking of the "build it for me" market, frankly. The whole (original) concept of the EAA was to provide support for the amateur-built, experimental builders and flyers. Which they still seem to be doing. If not strictly to everyone's liking. Which is, of course, a bit off of the OP's point about the EAA's seeming ignorance of aircraft costing less than a King's ransom. My fault, as I drifted along. I thought we was supposed to drift. Nice warm afternoon, in the kayak, in the shade... I'll go back and read the original post to refresh my ancient mind as to the subject of the discussion. Somehow, what sticks in my mind was someone's statement that the costs of homebuilt aircraft kits (and S-LSA aircraft) had gotten so expensive that pre-retired persons were going to be able to afford them, and we'd never see any of the more recent generation(s) entering GA. And I'm wondering why all the old, but still flyable/refurbishable, Champs, T-Craft, and similar used experimentals had suddenly disappeared. At least, they *used* to fill the gap between ultralights and commercial ready-to-fly offerings. |
#22
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Kinda sad
wrote in message ... On Apr 26, 7:13 pm, " wrote: http://www.airventure.org/2008/news/...ffordable.html Yeah real sad....but the tail has been waggin' the dog for a long time now. The C-172A cost us ~25,000, plus all the annual costs, etc... |
#23
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Kinda sad
"Rich S." wrote Jim - How do you like his Em? You can find the home page (and Max's Emeraude picture) at: http://asia.groups.yahoo.com/group/Emerauders/ Dang nice. If I could get a full medical, I would FIND a way to buy it. -- Jim in NC |
#24
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Kinda sad
In article ,
"Blueskies" wrote: wrote in message ... On Apr 26, 7:13 pm, " wrote: http://www.airventure.org/2008/news/...ffordable.html Yeah real sad....but the tail has been waggin' the dog for a long time now. The C-172A cost us ~25,000, plus all the annual costs, etc... I recall that the FBO that I worked for in the early '70s paid $20K for a new Cherokee 140 to use for instruction. They bought a new Warrior, slightly better equipped, four years later for about $104K. It certainly wasn't *that* much nicer, either. |
#25
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Kinda sad
"Jim Logajan" wrote in message
.. . cavelamb himself wrote: Jim Logajan wrote: cavelamb himself wrote: Jim Logajan wrote: cavelamb himself wrote: Nowdays it's supposed to be Easy aircraft assoc. Which ones are easy? The ones that take less than 10 years to build? Which ones are hard? The ones that never get built? Well, by inferance, the ones that come with all the parts already made. That includes all E-LSAs - by definition. I should really get back on point - which is why the EAA is being taken to task for a situation not of its making? I don't remember the ELSA rules being that way. Any project can qualify as ELSA if it meets the weight and performance criteria. Maybe I got that wrong? I suspect that we are both wrong. As I understand it, to sell an ELSA kit it first has to meet the standards for SLSA. I believe that means it also has to meet certain engineering standards in addition to weight and performance standards. And I believe an ELSA has to be built exactly according to the specifications and design of the SLSA. I would expect that last bit is accomplished by delivering ready-made parts, but technically nothing seems to require that aspect. So it isn't true that ELSAs need have all prebuilt parts by definition - just merely unlikely. Anyway, maybe I don't have the history right, but didn't the whole xLSA concept originate with the EAA? I mean they basically managed to find a way to get the FAA to adopt something less than the normal full certification process for a class of RTF aircraft. And for a new class of pilots - lowering the barrier there - or trying. Not perfect but I'm not sure it is fair to fault them for any aspect of a decline of experimental aviation. Part of this has been discussed here a couple of times. As I understand it, ELSA is a kit; but it is a special category of kit and not in any way intended to fall into the 51% concept. Instead, an ELSA kit is a kit version of an SLSA and must be built such as to be identical to the original and factory assembled SLSA version. Basically, it is "assemble it yourself" but it is not intended to be "build it yourself" and the SLSA itself is certified to a lower standard than we are otherwise accustomed to seeing--although, AFAIK, there is probably not much practical difference in day VFR service. However, any simple single piston engined aircraft which conforms to the operating envelope and weight limits of LSA may be treated as an LSA by an LSP--regardless of whether it is type certified, custom built, plans built, or kit built (whether materials, quick build, prepunched, or whatever). Therefore, LSA is simply a subset of single engined fixed gear aircraft, based upon weight and operating envelope, and SLSA and ELSA are subsets of LSA. I also had to read Ron W's explanations several times before I fianally got it through my head that most of it reallys is pretty simple--presuming that I now undertand it correctly. Actually, the obvious remaining question (and it may be trivial in the current scheme of things) is whether the builder of an Amateur Built Experimental, which is expected to fall within the LSA specifications, can make the initial flights as an LSP; or whether he would be required to have a PPL or better in order to first demonstrate that the performance is within the LSA performance envelope. I hope this helps. Peter |
#26
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Kinda sad
On 2008-05-02, Peter Dohm wrote:
the SLSA itself is certified to a lower standard than we are otherwise accustomed to seeing--although, AFAIK, there is probably not much practical difference in day VFR service. I was told recently that the flight testing standards for an SLSA are 4 pages long, while the flight testing standards for a normal category part 23 certificated aircraft are 38 pages long. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) |
#27
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Kinda sad
On Fri, 02 May 2008 01:03:38 GMT, Jay Maynard
wrote: On 2008-05-02, Peter Dohm wrote: the SLSA itself is certified to a lower standard than we are otherwise accustomed to seeing--although, AFAIK, there is probably not much practical difference in day VFR service. I was told recently that the flight testing standards for an SLSA are 4 pages long, while the flight testing standards for a normal category part 23 certificated aircraft are 38 pages long. Not really a fair comparison, since the ASTM Airplane standard only covers one narrowly-defined type of aircraft, while Part 23 covers four broad categories (Normal, Utility, Aerobatic, and Commuter) and covers aircraft with constant-speed props, more than one engine, turbines, jets, etc. My paper copy of 14CFR Part 23 has ~14 pages for the requirements for flight characteristics; ASTM F2245-04 runs about two for the same topic. Ron Wanttaja |
#28
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Kinda sad
"Peter Dohm" wrote:
Actually, the obvious remaining question (and it may be trivial in the current scheme of things) is whether the builder of an Amateur Built Experimental, which is expected to fall within the LSA specifications, can make the initial flights as an LSP; or whether he would be required to have a PPL or better in order to first demonstrate that the performance is within the LSA performance envelope. That is something of a chicken-and-egg situation. Would like to know the answer - in the mean time some speculation: I believe FAR 61.31(k) (specifically 61.31(k)(2)(iii)(B)) does not disallow such flights by any certificated pilot per se. But obviously it isn't the only operative FAR (such as the limitations of LSP). Still, ss I understand it, 61.31(k) allows a private pilot, SEL, to fly (for example) an experimental airship without having an airship rating. Perhaps by the same line of reasoning a sport pilot may fly an experimental aircraft that is not within the performance envelope of an LSA?? Hmmm. |
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