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#21
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Why are side sticks unpopular in sailplanes
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 15:00:08 -0800 (PST), Soartech
wrote: I also flew a gimbaled side-stick for 8 years in a Millennium ultralight sailplane. It was so smooth, natural and comfortable I looked for a sailplane with the same arrangement. But alas, all I could find were clunky setups with sliding sticks. No wonder side sticks get a bad rap in our little world. The center stick is OK, side stick is better, more natural. Just a question: How do you fly with a side stick if you need your right hand to, say, take a leak? Or change a setting on the panel? Did you train yourself to do all these things with the left hand? |
#22
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Why are side sticks unpopular in sailplanes
On 2/23/2017 9:41 AM, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 15:00:08 -0800 (PST), Soartech wrote: I also flew a gimbaled side-stick for 8 years in a Millennium ultralight sailplane. It was so smooth, natural and comfortable I looked for a sailplane with the same arrangement. But alas, all I could find were clunky setups with sliding sticks. No wonder side sticks get a bad rap in our little world. The center stick is OK, side stick is better, more natural. Just a question: How do you fly with a side stick if you need your right hand to, say, take a leak? Or change a setting on the panel? Did you train yourself to do all these things with the left hand? Oh goody! Is this where the conversation degenerates into increasingly loud personal protestations of "bestness?" Color me perplexed to understand how a side stick fundamentally differs from a center stick in regard to these sorts of matters. Save for my (rightside) stick hand, every glider cockpit in which I've flown has always depended on the left hand for everything but (with one exception - and it was in a center-stick-cockpit) cycling the landing gear. None of them *required* switching hands to operate anything on the instrument panel. That said, I understand "natural lefties" might choose - with a center stick - to set up their instrument panels so as to favor use of the right hand to operate panel stuff. I also understand the profusion of electronics today with still-increasing gobs of fiddly bits may - in many a glider pilot mind - make it "necessary" to use both hands to operate stuff. Coming soon to a glider cockpit near you - a ship with a one-channel autopilot so both hands can operate panel bits simultaneously? Ah, progress! Bob W. |
#23
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Why are side sticks unpopular in sailplanes
On Thursday, February 23, 2017 at 8:23:23 PM UTC+3, Bob Whelan wrote:
On 2/23/2017 9:41 AM, Andreas Maurer wrote: On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 15:00:08 -0800 (PST), Soartech wrote: I also flew a gimbaled side-stick for 8 years in a Millennium ultralight sailplane. It was so smooth, natural and comfortable I looked for a sailplane with the same arrangement. But alas, all I could find were clunky setups with sliding sticks. No wonder side sticks get a bad rap in our little world. The center stick is OK, side stick is better, more natural. Just a question: How do you fly with a side stick if you need your right hand to, say, take a leak? Or change a setting on the panel? Did you train yourself to do all these things with the left hand? Oh goody! Is this where the conversation degenerates into increasingly loud personal protestations of "bestness?" Color me perplexed to understand how a side stick fundamentally differs from a center stick in regard to these sorts of matters. Save for my (rightside) stick hand, every glider cockpit in which I've flown has always depended on the left hand for everything but (with one exception - and it was in a center-stick-cockpit) cycling the landing gear. None of them *required* switching hands to operate anything on the instrument panel. That said, I understand "natural lefties" might choose - with a center stick - to set up their instrument panels so as to favor use of the right hand to operate panel stuff. I also understand the profusion of electronics today with still-increasing gobs of fiddly bits may - in many a glider pilot mind - make it "necessary" to use both hands to operate stuff. Coming soon to a glider cockpit near you - a ship with a one-channel autopilot so both hands can operate panel bits simultaneously? Ah, progress! Which channel? Gliders seem to in general be fine hands-off for 30 seconds or so at a time. Usually the thing that makes me nudge the stick first is bank/heading, as it takes quite a lot longer for the phugoid to get out of control. |
#24
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Why are side sticks unpopular in sailplanes
At 17:56 23 February 2017, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Thursday, February 23, 2017 at 8:23:23 PM UTC+3, Bob Whelan wrote: On 2/23/2017 9:41 AM, Andreas Maurer wrote: On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 15:00:08 -0800 (PST), Soartech wrote: I also flew a gimbaled side-stick for 8 years in a Millennium ultralight sailplane. It was so smooth, natural and comfortable I looked for a sailplane with the same arrangement. But alas, all I could find were clunky setups with sliding sticks. No wonder side sticks get a bad rap in our little world. The center stick is OK, side stick is better, more natural. Just a question: How do you fly with a side stick if you need your right hand to, say, take a leak? Or change a setting on the panel? Did you train yourself to do all these things with the left hand? Oh goody! Is this where the conversation degenerates into increasingly loud personal protestations of "bestness?" Color me perplexed to understand how a side stick fundamentally differs from a center stick in regard to these sorts of matters. Save for my (rightside) stick hand, every glider cockpit in which I've flown has always depended on the left hand for everything but (with one exception - and it was in a center-stick-cockpit) cycling the landing gear. None of them *required* switching hands to operate anything on the instrument panel. That said, I understand "natural lefties" might choose - with a center stick - to set up their instrument panels so as to favor use of the right hand to operate panel stuff. I also understand the profusion of electronics today with still-increasing gobs of fiddly bits may - in many a glider pilot mind - make it "necessary" to use both hands to operate stuff. Coming soon to a glider cockpit near you - a ship with a one-channel autopilot so both hands can operate panel bits simultaneously? Ah, progress! Which channel? Gliders seem to in general be fine hands-off for 30 seconds or so at a time. Usually the thing that makes me nudge the stick first is bank/heading, as it takes quite a lot longer for the phugoid to get out of control. Is it just me, With the centre stick I fly with both hands,sometimes at the same time,I never think about it. Gear,ballast vent on the right ,brakes ,trim release on left Center stick has to be best. |
#25
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Why are side sticks unpopular in sailplanes
On Thursday, February 23, 2017 at 9:23:23 AM UTC-8, Bob Whelan wrote:
On 2/23/2017 9:41 AM, Andreas Maurer wrote: On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 15:00:08 -0800 (PST), Soartech wrote: I also flew a gimbaled side-stick for 8 years in a Millennium ultralight sailplane. It was so smooth, natural and comfortable I looked for a sailplane with the same arrangement. But alas, all I could find were clunky setups with sliding sticks. No wonder side sticks get a bad rap in our little world. The center stick is OK, side stick is better, more natural. Just a question: How do you fly with a side stick if you need your right hand to, say, take a leak? Or change a setting on the panel? Did you train yourself to do all these things with the left hand? Oh goody! Is this where the conversation degenerates into increasingly loud personal protestations of "bestness?" Color me perplexed to understand how a side stick fundamentally differs from a center stick in regard to these sorts of matters. Save for my (rightside) stick hand, every glider cockpit in which I've flown has always depended on the left hand for everything but (with one exception - and it was in a center-stick-cockpit) cycling the landing gear. None of them *required* switching hands to operate anything on the instrument panel. That said, I understand "natural lefties" might choose - with a center stick - to set up their instrument panels so as to favor use of the right hand to operate panel stuff. I also understand the profusion of electronics today with still-increasing gobs of fiddly bits may - in many a glider pilot mind - make it "necessary" to use both hands to operate stuff. Coming soon to a glider cockpit near you - a ship with a one-channel autopilot so both hands can operate panel bits simultaneously? Ah, progress! Bob W. Ergonomics, human factors... something not touched on yet is that a center stick allows your body to become the 'armrest', which adds a whole lot more nerves to the biological servo feedback loop, plus your leg even gets involved in stabilizing inputs under certain conditions. A center stick also allows a larger 'throw range', spreading the same inputs across a larger physical area translates into finer granular resolution. Center stick can be flown with eitehr hand in case you need to do something with your right hand. Center stick is a longer lever, thus allowing less muscle to hold it steady or affect inputs, which generally translates into increased precision, plus allows the use of 2 hands as Jonothon points out. |
#26
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Why are side sticks unpopular in sailplanes
Is it just me, With the centre stick I fly with both hands,sometimes at the same time,I never think about it. Gear,ballast vent on the right ,brakes ,trim release on left Center stick has to be best. OK, here my glider/slow speed analysis... At the speeds we fly, and thus the relatively small circle diameters, the outboard wing will be going marginally faster than the inboard wing. This means that it creates more lift than the inboard wing due to relative speed alone, and thus to keep from over-banking I find the need to apply a very small amount of top aileron (against the turn) in order to keep a stable bank angle and equalize the lift generated by both wings. Because the outer wing goes faster, it also generates more drag as well, so I find that I have to hold slight bottom rudder pressure along with the top aileron in order to have the yaw string going straight back. So, now think about how that translates to operating the stick. With a center stick, it is easier to make left turns and pull the stick straight back towards your right elbow and right hip, than it is to make right turns and be pushing the stick towards your left hip (all while using your right hand). I have trained myself to fly with either hand so that I use the opposite hand to the direction I am thermalling in. George Moffat and Dick Johnson did this as well, so I am not alone. This may partially explain why so many glider pilots prefer to make left turns (always flying with their right hands). I also know that George and Dick initiated right hand turns whenever they could (in order to set the turn direction of a thermal) as a competitive trick, knowing that most of their competitors would be less comfortable in a right hand turn than they were. Translate this to a gimballed side stick where all motion is in the wrist, and then I don't believe that the ergonomics will preference one turn direction over another, but with a center stick there are good reasons to be able or want to switch hands on the stick. RO |
#27
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Why are side sticks unpopular in sailplanes
I have heard from several very experienced pilots that it is easier to turn left than right, but in my thousands of hours of flying gliders, helicopters and various powered aircraft I have not found this to be true for me, a turn in either direction is the same other than if torque or LTE considerations. A glider has neither consideration. I do try to change thermal direction every other thermal. But I am confused as to why a pilot would think it is easier to turn in one direction.
On Thursday, February 23, 2017 at 2:45:04 PM UTC-8, Michael Opitz wrote: Is it just me, With the centre stick I fly with both hands,sometimes at the same time,I never think about it. Gear,ballast vent on the right ,brakes ,trim release on left Center stick has to be best. OK, here my glider/slow speed analysis... At the speeds we fly, and thus the relatively small circle diameters, the outboard wing will be going marginally faster than the inboard wing. This means that it creates more lift than the inboard wing due to relative speed alone, and thus to keep from over-banking I find the need to apply a very small amount of top aileron (against the turn) in order to keep a stable bank angle and equalize the lift generated by both wings. Because the outer wing goes faster, it also generates more drag as well, so I find that I have to hold slight bottom rudder pressure along with the top aileron in order to have the yaw string going straight back. So, now think about how that translates to operating the stick. With a center stick, it is easier to make left turns and pull the stick straight back towards your right elbow and right hip, than it is to make right turns and be pushing the stick towards your left hip (all while using your right hand). I have trained myself to fly with either hand so that I use the opposite hand to the direction I am thermalling in. George Moffat and Dick Johnson did this as well, so I am not alone. This may partially explain why so many glider pilots prefer to make left turns (always flying with their right hands). I also know that George and Dick initiated right hand turns whenever they could (in order to set the turn direction of a thermal) as a competitive trick, knowing that most of their competitors would be less comfortable in a right hand turn than they were. Translate this to a gimballed side stick where all motion is in the wrist, and then I don't believe that the ergonomics will preference one turn direction over another, but with a center stick there are good reasons to be able or want to switch hands on the stick. RO |
#28
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Why are side sticks unpopular in sailplanes
With the centre stick I fly with both hands, sometimes at
the same time, I never think about it. Gear, ballast vent on the right, brakes, trim release on left. Center stick has to be best. OK, here my glider/slow speed analysis... At the speeds we fly, and thus the relatively small circle diameters, the outboard wing will be going marginally faster than the inboard wing. This means that it creates more lift than the inboard wing due to relative speed alone, and thus to keep from over-banking I find the need to apply a very small amount of top aileron (against the turn) in order to keep a stable bank angle and equalize the lift generated by both wings. Because the outer wing goes faster, it also generates more drag as well, so I find that I have to hold slight bottom rudder pressure along with the top aileron in order to have the yaw string going straight back. So, now think about how that translates to operating the stick. With a center stick, it is easier to make left turns and pull the stick straight back towards your right elbow and right hip, than it is to make right turns and be pushing the stick towards your left hip (all while using your right hand). I have trained myself to fly with either hand so that I use the opposite hand to the direction I am thermalling in. George Moffat and Dick Johnson did this as well, so I am not alone. This may partially explain why so many glider pilots prefer to make left turns (always flying with their right hands). I also know that George and Dick initiated right hand turns whenever they could (in order to set the turn direction of a thermal) as a competitive trick, knowing that most of their competitors would be less comfortable in a right hand turn than they were. Translate this to a gimballed side stick where all motion is in the wrist, and then I don't believe that the ergonomics will preference one turn direction over another, but with a center stick there are good reasons to be able or want to switch hands on the stick. Interestingly (to me, anyway) enough, early-on I found myself preferring left-hand circles in a (center-sticked) 1-26, which bothered me intellectually...but upon transitioning to a (center-sticked, 15-meter) Concept 70 I could detect no turn direction bias. Eventually I concluded my in-turn visibility was better in the 1-26 in a left turn than in a right turn, almost certainly due to the (somewhat poor, for 5'9" me) straight-ahead viz in the 1-26, and it was easier to bias my whole torso to the left for best in-turn viz than it was to the right. Doing so to the right felt somehow "forced," perhaps due to where my right elbow ended up, somewhat scrunched into a corner of the cockpit. For whatever reason, it never occurred to me to try a right hand turn using my left one on the stick. With no apparent visibility bias in the ("normal/semi-reclined" pilot position) C70, there was no turn-direction bias...which remained the case until I transitioned into my (side-sticked, similar-to-C70-seating position) Zuni, when (briefly) a left-turn bias reappeared. Once my right forearm muscles adapted to/strengthened from the grunt required to lift/horse the (heavy in roll) stick to the right, the bias again disappeared, and - as it should be, IMO - whichever side on which I encountered the thermal lift dictated initial bank direction. Having essentially zero experience in earlier-generation, long-spanned, ships (commonly flown by Moffat and Johnson), perhaps some aspect of muscle power bias might be a factor for some in them? In any event, these sorts of considerations seem to me to be pretty much toward the fringe of ship-handling attributes...real enough, but far from deal-killers to (most?) potential purchasers. Of course, if money were no object, then I might think about "ship quirks" differently! Bob W. |
#29
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Why are side sticks unpopular in sailplanes
I've always felt it was easier to push the stick to the left while
pulling it back (pitch control) than it was to pull it right while pulling. For me it has to do with the mechanics of the wrist and elbow joints. The more stick throw required, the more apparent it is to me sitting on my couch and pretending to fly. It's obvious to me that, with a long throw, a center stick is preferable, with a short throw, not so much. I really think it comes down to preference and I can get used to anything. In the Stemme, I take off with my left hand so I can keep my right on the throttle. I land with my right hand so I can keep my left on the dive brake lever. After securing the engine, I switch off hands now and then to fiddle with an instrument (the soaring stuff is in the middle of the panel to my right), to eat an apple, or just for a change of pace. On 2/23/2017 7:21 PM, Bob Whelan wrote: With the centre stick I fly with both hands, sometimes at the same time, I never think about it. Gear, ballast vent on the right, brakes, trim release on left. Center stick has to be best. OK, here my glider/slow speed analysis... At the speeds we fly, and thus the relatively small circle diameters, the outboard wing will be going marginally faster than the inboard wing. This means that it creates more lift than the inboard wing due to relative speed alone, and thus to keep from over-banking I find the need to apply a very small amount of top aileron (against the turn) in order to keep a stable bank angle and equalize the lift generated by both wings. Because the outer wing goes faster, it also generates more drag as well, so I find that I have to hold slight bottom rudder pressure along with the top aileron in order to have the yaw string going straight back. So, now think about how that translates to operating the stick. With a center stick, it is easier to make left turns and pull the stick straight back towards your right elbow and right hip, than it is to make right turns and be pushing the stick towards your left hip (all while using your right hand). I have trained myself to fly with either hand so that I use the opposite hand to the direction I am thermalling in. George Moffat and Dick Johnson did this as well, so I am not alone. This may partially explain why so many glider pilots prefer to make left turns (always flying with their right hands). I also know that George and Dick initiated right hand turns whenever they could (in order to set the turn direction of a thermal) as a competitive trick, knowing that most of their competitors would be less comfortable in a right hand turn than they were. Translate this to a gimballed side stick where all motion is in the wrist, and then I don't believe that the ergonomics will preference one turn direction over another, but with a center stick there are good reasons to be able or want to switch hands on the stick. Interestingly (to me, anyway) enough, early-on I found myself preferring left-hand circles in a (center-sticked) 1-26, which bothered me intellectually...but upon transitioning to a (center-sticked, 15-meter) Concept 70 I could detect no turn direction bias. Eventually I concluded my in-turn visibility was better in the 1-26 in a left turn than in a right turn, almost certainly due to the (somewhat poor, for 5'9" me) straight-ahead viz in the 1-26, and it was easier to bias my whole torso to the left for best in-turn viz than it was to the right. Doing so to the right felt somehow "forced," perhaps due to where my right elbow ended up, somewhat scrunched into a corner of the cockpit. For whatever reason, it never occurred to me to try a right hand turn using my left one on the stick. With no apparent visibility bias in the ("normal/semi-reclined" pilot position) C70, there was no turn-direction bias...which remained the case until I transitioned into my (side-sticked, similar-to-C70-seating position) Zuni, when (briefly) a left-turn bias reappeared. Once my right forearm muscles adapted to/strengthened from the grunt required to lift/horse the (heavy in roll) stick to the right, the bias again disappeared, and - as it should be, IMO - whichever side on which I encountered the thermal lift dictated initial bank direction. Having essentially zero experience in earlier-generation, long-spanned, ships (commonly flown by Moffat and Johnson), perhaps some aspect of muscle power bias might be a factor for some in them? In any event, these sorts of considerations seem to me to be pretty much toward the fringe of ship-handling attributes...real enough, but far from deal-killers to (most?) potential purchasers. Of course, if money were no object, then I might think about "ship quirks" differently! Bob W. -- Dan, 5J |
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