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#21
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So does any one have an actual list of tug upset accidents with
towplane type, glider type and circumstances? Just off hand I can't remember any in Australia and yes even when you use low tow the upset possibility exists after liftoff and before transition to low tow. We've had plenty of towplane/glider midairs which makes existence as a tow pilot 10 times as likely to kill you as cropdusting per hour. Mike Borgelt |
#22
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Ian Strachan wrote in message ...
In article , Andy Durbin writes snip LBA certification prohibits the use of CG hook for aerotow Does not that tell you something, then? 1. With over 1500 hours in the ASW 19 I am very familiar with aero tow with CG hooks. So I have no doubt also thought the glider pilots who got out of position and killed the tug pilot. If you have data on those accidents I would be interested in seeing it. I used to be a tug pilot (2 USA clubs and 1 UK club). The only tug pilot fatalities I am familiar with that resulted from glider being too high did not involve a cg hook. Just do not come to my club and expect to tow on your aft hook, or anywhere where I am towing. I would have thought where life-and-death was concerned you could be a tad more humble about your undoubted handling abilities. But perhaps unlike the rest of us, you never have an off-day ...... One of the reasons I included the forward hook in my order was the slim chance that I would return to UK. What should I do with my ASW 19? I had planned to transition my low time wife to it but perhaps the risks are just too great. Is there an approved forward hook modification? Andy (GY) |
#23
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Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...
I found the forward hook (about 1 to 2 feet back from the nose) was better in a crosswind, better if the wing runner was clumsy, better if I got distracted on tow, better in rough air, and I never ran over the tow rope, which happened once in a while with the CG hook. Thanks for that feedback. I'll try it next tow. When you say it was better in those respects are you comparing your 26 on forward hook to your 26 on cg hook or with your 20 on cg hook. Andy (GY) |
#24
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Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...
I also had 1000+ hours on my ASW 20 CG hook (and another 600 on other gliders) when I had a forward hook installed. Sorry, I read this too quickly before I posted the first reply. I now realize that you modified your 20 and were not comparing with the 26. Perhaps you could send me more info on the mod. I may want to do it to my 19. thanks Andy (GY) |
#25
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Andy Durbin wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote in message ... I also had 1000+ hours on my ASW 20 CG hook (and another 600 on other gliders) when I had a forward hook installed. Sorry, I read this too quickly before I posted the first reply. I now realize that you modified your 20 and were not comparing with the 26. Perhaps you could send me more info on the mod. I may want to do it to my 19. When countries began requiring forward hooks for aero tow about 15 years ago, Schleicher came out with retrofits for their gliders. I got the pieces and instructions for doing this on my 20 from the Schleicher dealer and had it installed. I assume the same is available for the 19. -- ----- change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell Washington State USA |
#26
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There have been several fatal "aerotow upset" accidents in the U.K. where
it seems certain that towing on a hook intended for winch launching was a factor. These include: Lasham new year 1963/4 Auster towing a Ka 6cr or Skylark 2 (I forget which), Tug at Aboyne towing a Ka 6e, Tugs (Super Cubs) towing K 18s at Portmoak and Dunstable (within a few months of each other), this led to the tests by Chris Rollings, Verdun Luck and Brian Spreckley at Booker see http://www.glidingmagazine.com/ListF...Dtl.asp?id=327 . Will that do, or how many others do you need? Any glider which launches well on a cable using the aft launching hook, will do the same behind a tug maybe killing the tug pilot in the process. If you really think that the glider pilot can control or stop this process once it starts, READ THE ARTICLE LINKED ABOVE; I suggest that the pilots who conducted those tests were more experienced, more current and just plain better than you. To my certain knowledge it is possible to fit a forward hook for aerotow to the ASW 15, 17, ASK 18, ASW 19, 20, and 22 and the Pegase; the ASK 21 and 23 and I think later types were fitted with it as standard. I don't know of any examples of these in club (as distinct from private owner) use which have not been modified. I think you would be very wise to have your ASW 19 fitted with the approved forward hook modification before your wife flies it on aerotow. W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). Remove "ic" to reply. "Andy Durbin" wrote in message om... Ian Strachan wrote in message ... In article , Andy Durbin writes snip LBA certification prohibits the use of CG hook for aerotow Does not that tell you something, then? 1. With over 1500 hours in the ASW 19 I am very familiar with aero tow with CG hooks. So I have no doubt also thought the glider pilots who got out of position and killed the tug pilot. If you have data on those accidents I would be interested in seeing it. I used to be a tug pilot (2 USA clubs and 1 UK club). The only tug pilot fatalities I am familiar with that resulted from glider being too high did not involve a cg hook. Just do not come to my club and expect to tow on your aft hook, or anywhere where I am towing. I would have thought where life-and-death was concerned you could be a tad more humble about your undoubted handling abilities. But perhaps unlike the rest of us, you never have an off-day ...... One of the reasons I included the forward hook in my order was the slim chance that I would return to UK. What should I do with my ASW 19? I had planned to transition my low time wife to it but perhaps the risks are just too great. Is there an approved forward hook modification? Andy (GY) |
#27
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In article , Andy
Durbin writes I have flown the last 15 or so years with aerotow on a cg hook. My new ASW-28 has forward and CG hooks but I have never used the forward hook. First of all, if the manual says to not use the C.G. hook for aerotow, I personally wouldn't try it, even once. But that's just me. Next, as a tow pilot, if I ever towed someone and found out they used a CG hook not allowed by POH, I'd have a lengthy discussion with the pilot. I'd explain why I'm not interested in doing abnormal procedures without being informed before the flight. I don't believe I always must do everything recommended, but if I decide not to, I MUST acknowledge that I am now a test pilot, and have perhaps voided any insurance. I also need to get the approval of anyone else put at greater risk (a second pilot, the tug driver, etc.). We had this happen when flying the Blanik L-13 without the canopy. There was quite a bit of discussion and agreement from all parties before doing this. In the end everything worked out fine, but more importantly, everyone had input and was comfortable that precautions and research had been done. And boy was it FUN! I would think glider CG might be an issue here. In the past 15 years, you've flown using the CG hook of a glider that has a certain CG and a certain, perhaps fairly forward, loading. A new glider with a different placement of the CG hook relative to the CG may be a completely different ride. If you do try it, keep meticulous records, and send a report to the manufacturer. I bet they'd like to know, since maybe their test pilot was too chicken to do it himself. If you do decide to use the CG hook for an aerotow, despite the voices here and the POH, at the very least get the cooperation of the tow pilot, since it isn't just you taking a risk. And if you can't find a towpilot to agree, maybe that's a sign... Another thought...is it possible to rig a towline in such a way that it has TWO rings? So that one could release the nose ring and then be on the belly ring? Could one then launch (the super dangerous part) using the nose ring and then release this and experiment using the belly ring up at high altitude? Hmmm...I guess not since they both release using the same mechanism...but otherwise this seems to be a better way to experiment than taking off on the CG hook. I'd suspect that a factory test pilot who wanted to test both hooks for aerotow might try something like this...with two individual release knobs perhaps... Of course all of this begs the question: if the glider HAS a nose hook for aerotow, why not just use it? But that certainly wouldn't encourage a nice armchair discussion, right? |
#28
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#29
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Some branches of this thread are starting to hot up. I call Godwin in four!
Bob K. |
#30
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Bob Kuykendall wrote:
Some branches of this thread are starting to hot up. I call Godwin in four! Bob K. Yeah sure you would say that. What are you some kind of Naz.... He He Just kinding :-) |
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