Aviation crash videos on-line

"Casey Wilson" wrote in message
news:AEq_c.1640$PK3.445@trnddc08...


snip

According to:
http://netscape.nascar.com/2004/news...30/california/
"92,000 -- The announced grandstand seating capacity of California
Speedway. "

The actual count is 92,109 according to the Speedway officials, but
hey.....

Oh, I should also point out that is the number of seats in the
grandstands -- it does not include all the RVs parked around the infield.



Texas Motor Speedway has a total capacity of 204,861. The actual seating
capacity is 154,861 and the infield capacity is 53,000.
http://www.texasmotorspeedway.com/sp...trackspecs.asp

If I remember correctly, TMS has sold out *every* NASCAR event to date. They
have finally received a second NASCAR date, so now I bet they sell out 2
races per year!

Go Dale Jr!!!


---
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"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:vip_c.291091$eM2.269081@attbi_s51...
You are injecting oranges into an apples discussing here.
the issue of whether or not crashes are entertaining to the masses
is a
whole different issue than the ethics of putting crash video out on
the
net for entertainment or to project one's "hobby".

I see them as different sides of the same coin. One begets the other,
IMHO.

I would not argue that crash footage isn't "thrilling". I would
argue
however, that those who engage in both providing such footage on the
net
for general viewing , and viewing such footage for the purpose of
the
"thrill" involved, and trying to pass their prurient interest off as
being associated with flight safety are not my kind of people.

If it's hypocrisy you're angry about, I'm with you. But I don't think
the
original poster was trying to pass his site off as being associated
with
flight safety in any way.

Don't try selling ME this crap as a safety issue. I know better. I
stood
at the crash site of a close friend during the Cape May Air Races in
71.
His body was still in the cockpit of his AT6 crushed like a dishrag.
I
held his wife in my arms as she tried hysterically to break away and
climb in the cockpit with her husband. I can still feel her shaking
and
screaming to this day. I watched as a spectator....one of these
"photographers" we're discussing here....ran over to where we were
standing and took a picture, not of the wreck, but of HER!!!!

Some of the greatest photographs of our time -- many Pulitzer Prize
winners -- have been snapped in just such a fashion.

Not to defend that photographer's actions, or to minimize your
friend's
anguish -- personally, I couldn't do such a thing, emotionally or
technically -- but this event would clearly be labeled as "breaking
news" by
most journalists, and there are writers and photographers out there
whose
main job it is to cover these types of events.

Somewhere on this planet, a complete stranger, a person with a
camera
who didn't know her, and could have cared less about her, has a
picture
he took without her permission, at the most horrible and personal
moment
of her life,that allows him to share that moment in time with her.
I hope he chokes on it!

I understand your emotion, but I think it's misplaced. Flying
airplanes in
an air race, wing-tip to wing-tip, is INCREDIBLY dangerous. The odds
of an
accident or incident are high, the odds of violent death are not good.
Your
friend knew the risks, and knowingly took them.

He also knew -- as did you -- that the race course was ringed with
spectators and journalists with cameras. To expect photographers to
turn
away from a spectacular airplane crash is pretty unreasonable. To
expect a
photographer NOT to snap a picture of someone trying to run toward a
plane
wreck is unrealistic.

To expect these same photographs to be destroyed, or never published,
is
even less realistic. The internet is just the newest form of
publishing, a
natural progression from Guttenberg until today. This guy's website
is
just an electronic book -- photos printed with electrons instead of
ink.

Although I understand your distaste, Dudley, you are railing against
human
nature. A darker side of it, for sure -- but it's human nature
nonetheless.
You're not going to change it.

I'm not arguing that these things don't exist. Nor am I arguing their
reasons for existence. YOU ARE!!!
Apparently for some reason you just can't grasp the fact that what I
posted initially was simply a personal statement of distaste. It's YOU
who keep arguing a position for crash photos outside the flight safety
context. I'm simply responding to YOUR seeming objection that I find the
use of these photos distasteful to me personally and feel the need to
"educate" me in the finer points of life.

One more time Jay; I'm saying that it's DISTASTEFUL to me personally and
that I for one don't wish to associate with it. Whether or not YOU have
an opposing viewpoint is of absolutely no consequence to me or how I
view the situation at all. I appreciate the fact that you do however,
obviously have an opposing viewpoint and I respect your right to express
it. But when you start branching your "opinions" out of your puddle
jumper cockpit and into my world as a demonstration pilot as an equal,
I'm afraid you have crossed the line with me. You are not my equal, and
on issues like these I will never see you as such.
That being said, and considering I don't particularly relish being
lectured by a pleasure pilot on the idiosyncrasies and dangers involved
in a business I have known thousands of hours in as a participant and
you know only as a spectator, if you don't object I'll just allow you
your feelings on the matter whatever they are,and bid you a fond
farewell.
I don't mean this last comment in a particularly mean way Jay; actually
it's kind of sarcastically humorous as I see it; but If I ever need an
"expert" opinion on flying high performance airplanes in a dangerous
environment, I'll be sure to notify you right away. Until then, I'll
just have to struggle by on what I know about the subject already :-)

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

Apparently for some reason you just can't grasp the fact that what I
posted initially was simply a personal statement of distaste.

No, you didn't tell the original poster "I find you personally
distasteful" -- you said "I detest people like you."

That's not a subtle difference.

But when you start branching your "opinions" out of your puddle
jumper cockpit and into my world as a demonstration pilot as an equal,
I'm afraid you have crossed the line with me. You are not my equal, and
on issues like these I will never see you as such.

What you can't seem to grasp is that your inflammatory statement (and my
following post) was NOT about demonstration flying, or even about
puddle-jumper flying -- it was about ethics. And on this subject, sir, I am
at least your equal.

Apparently you have no interest in explaining the ethical logic that must
underlie your somewhat bizarre response to the initial post -- and that, of
course, is your prerogative. But then don't complain to me about being
lectured to about flying -- because that's not what is happening here.

Far from it.

That being said, and considering I don't particularly relish being
lectured by a pleasure pilot on the idiosyncrasies and dangers involved
in a business I have known thousands of hours in as a participant and
you know only as a spectator, if you don't object I'll just allow you
your feelings on the matter whatever they are,and bid you a fond
farewell.

*sigh*

Since I've obviously failed to make my point -- and this is a topic I REALLY
don't care much about -- I will also bid you a fond "Adios" as well...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:yLr_c.103907$9d6.76039@attbi_s54...
Apparently for some reason you just can't grasp the fact that what I
posted initially was simply a personal statement of distaste.

No, you didn't tell the original poster "I find you personally
distasteful" -- you said "I detest people like you."

That's not a subtle difference.

I see.... depends on the meaning of what "is" is; right? Don't know
about you Honek, but if I detest somone, you can be fairly certain that
whatever they might be doing that illicits this response, I would find
personally distasteful, don't you think? Seems like a simple equation to
me!


But when you start branching your "opinions" out of your puddle
jumper cockpit and into my world as a demonstration pilot as an
equal,
I'm afraid you have crossed the line with me. You are not my equal,
and
on issues like these I will never see you as such.

What you can't seem to grasp is that your inflammatory statement (and
my
following post) was NOT about demonstration flying, or even about
puddle-jumper flying -- it was about ethics. And on this subject,
sir, I am
at least your equal.

Well, maybe in your opinion anyway. But not in mine; not if you enjoy
watching crash video for....as you have said....the "thrills"
involved.... was it? I believe what you said exactly was " Personally,
I view aviation videos for the thrill". (I should note here that when
you made this statement, we were discussing aviation crash video outside
the flight safety aspect specifically and not aviation videos per se')


Apparently you have no interest in explaining the ethical logic that
must
underlie your somewhat bizarre response to the initial post -- and
that, of
course, is your prerogative.

I believe I've explained the logic behind my reaction to purient crash
video quite plainly. To reiterate, it's based on fifty years of exposure
to flying airplanes in the environment depicted in these crash videos;
direct involvement as a participant working with the issues involved in
the safety aspects of this scenario; personal experience with the greif
and suffering of friends and associates killed in this scenario; and my
total dislike for those who treat crash video as a hobby, presenting it
in the public forum for sheer entertainment with no regard to the safety
issue and/or the lives they touch by so doing; and my total dislike for
those who willingly partake of these crash videos "for the thrill" they
get from watching them. Need I continue, or is this enough?


But then don't complain to me about being
lectured to about flying -- because that's not what is happening here.

Really.....what's this then?
Honek lectures;
"Flying airplanes in
an air race, wing-tip to wing-tip, is INCREDIBLY dangerous. The odds of
an
accident or incident are high, the odds of violent death are not good."

No kidding....REALLY!!! Why, I NEVER would have known this had you not
taken the time to explain it to me.......and so thoroughly too!!!!! :-))



*sigh*

Yes, a "sigh" is what I would expect from someone who would feel the
need to supply this tidbit of more or less obvious information to
someone else who has spent a lifetime directly involved with the
environment and hardly needs the information explained by someone who
hasn't.

Since I've obviously failed to make my point -- and this is a topic I
REALLY
don't care much about -- I will also bid you a fond "Adios" as well...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Yes, you have failed to make your point, with me at least; whatever that
was, but you did make one point perfectly clear in your last comment.
You obviously "don't care much about the topic" and I do. That's the
basic difference between us and the crux of our disagreement.
I have no desire to end this with you on a bad note Jay. It's just not
worth it for either one of us. Let's end this now before it crosses over
into something it need not become.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

Casey Wilson wrote:

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:40p_c.102614$9d6.102101@attbi_s54...

Is this true? Do NASCAR attendances really exceed those of football
(soccer)?

I have no way to verify that -- it's just what the media has been

spouting.

I suppose it's not surprising, since a single race can have several

hundred

thousand "fans" in attendance.
--
Jay Honeck


The media out here in SoCal are claiming that the weekend's
attendance at the Fontana Raceway will exceed the count at three NFL Super
Bowls.

According to:
http://netscape.nascar.com/2004/news...30/california/
"92,000 -- The announced grandstand seating capacity of California
Speedway. "

The actual count is 92,109 according to the Speedway officials, but hey.....

Oh, I should also point out that is the number of seats in the
grandstands -- it does not include all the RVs parked around the infield.


A NASCAR race gets more than any ONE footbal game. But more spectators
than the NFL on any weekend? Not in a million years.

"Mike" wrote

Jay, I checked the NASCAR site
(http://www.nascar.com/2004/promos/20...world_drivers/) and I
can
only see them claiming to be the US's top spectator sport. I'll buy
that -
like you, I have no way to verify it.

However, I can't believe it's the *world's* top spectator sport:
football/soccer must pull in many more, whether on TV or at the stadiums.



Figures lie, and liars figure. With that in mind, they could claim to be
the #1 spectator sport, on the basis of # of fans per event, viewing it.
That could be justified. Also, given the fact that fans throughout the
country view the same NASCAR event at one time via TV, while other sports'
fans are viewing their individual local games, would also stack stats in
their favor...
--
Jim in NC

Dear Mr. Henriques,

I am beginning to get fed up with your moralistic lections. I have put the
videos on-line to share them with other people, and hoping to receive some
new videos from other collectors. The reason that I used the aviation safety
newsgroup to announce the video webpage was because I know that crashes have
everything to do with aviation safety and people in this group may be extra
interested to look at them for many different reasons.

Whatever my intentions are to share the videos, it is not something that
requires your approval. The fact is that aviation crashes are fully ON-TOPIC
on this newsgroup. I don't have to put up with the opinion of some hypoctit
pilot who is involved in demonstration flights and air races, intended to
push flying to the limit. If it wasn't for guys like you, about 50% of all
crash videos would have never been shot because the crashes simply didn't
occur.

Flying is relatively safe, but pushing flight to the limit for the fun of it
just isn't. Don't complain if something goes wrong when guys like you are
willingly taking more risk than necessary during air races and demonstration
flights. And stop pointing fingers at people who are interested to see
thrilling aviation just because it simply exites them. Pilots like you
provided it to them in the first place!

And regarding the photographer that shot the photos of your friend's widow,
these guys are called journalists. It is people like them that fill the
newspapers with eye catching photos that make the readers feel the emotion
involved in incidents and accidents. It gives face to the cold text of the
news. For example: Just think of what 9/11 would have looked like to the
world without photos or video. The world just wouldn't be half as upset as
it is now.

I will continue to try and shoot beautiful and artistic aviation photographs
like can be seen at my photogalleries, and I will also continue to try and
keep the aviation videos on-line. Having learned from the first publication,
I think I will create a webpage at which I will publish one new video every
week. With about 100 videos available already, I have enough material to
publish for two years straight. Just keep checking
http://www.dappa.nl/crash.htm for the videos, or to see my photogalleries.

To all other readers: If you have any aviation crash videos for me, please
send them to .

Fly safe,
Iwan Bogels




"Dudley Henriques" schreef in bericht
ink.net...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:zem_c.101871$9d6.78381@attbi_s54...
What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes
for
reasons
other than flight safety?

I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of
viewing
aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than I
require you justify yourself to me.

Actually, I was just curious as to your reasoning.

I don't pretend to understand *why* viewing vehicle crashes is
entertaining
to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly seen
by the
success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on
attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of
hundreds of
county fairgrounds across America.

Further evidence can be seen by the proliferation of "America's Worst
Police
Chases"-type of programming. These police videos -- many of them
depicting
auto wrecks and gunfights -- are hugely popular.

It's a peculiar phenomenon, I'll give you that -- but to "detest
people like
that" is to despise a huge percentage of Americans.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

You are injecting oranges into an apples discussing here.
the issue of whether or not crashes are entertaining to the masses is a
whole different issue than the ethics of putting crash video out on the
net for entertainment or to project one's "hobby".
You are simply going off topic and stating a possible reason for WHY
people might find crash video exciting and entertaining. Then you are
backing this up by telling me that YOU find these crash videos
"thrilling".
Thrilling isn't the issue here. Ethics is the issue, or more correctly,
the lack of ethics.
I would not argue that crash footage isn't "thrilling". I would argue
however, that those who engage in both providing such footage on the net
for general viewing , and viewing such footage for the purpose of the
"thrill" involved, and trying to pass their prurient interest off as
being associated with flight safety are not my kind of people.
Crash footage has a real and genuine use as a flight safety tool, and
presented in the correct context, BY PEOPLE IN THE SAFETY BUSINESS,
crash photography is welcomed by the safety community and the aviation
community at large. There is much to be learned from crash footage
presented in this manner.
But don't tell me above all people that some photographer out there
presenting his "wares" on the net that consist of gigs of crash video
that he clearly states is his "hobby" has been presented as a public
service or in a safety associated context. That's just plain bull ****!
These people are engaged in enhancing their images within their
community...that's it....that's all......nothing more than that. What's
important to them is the film speed.....the equipment used.......and
yes; the sheer excitement of the event itself...the more dramatic the
event, the more kudos for the photographer.
Don't try selling ME this crap as a safety issue. I know better. I stood
at the crash site of a close friend during the Cape May Air Races in 71.
His body was still in the cockpit of his AT6 crushed like a dishrag. I
held his wife in my arms as she tried hysterically to break away and
climb in the cockpit with her husband. I can still feel her shaking and
screaming to this day. I watched as a spectator....one of these
"photographers" we're discussing here....ran over to where we were
standing and took a picture, not of the wreck, but of HER!!!!
Crash video has a distinct place in our lives as pilots. We can learn
from it if it's presented in the proper context, but to allow ourselves
to be witness to a human tragedy for no other purpose than to enjoy our
"hobby" or satisfy our desire for excitement is not my idea of ethical
behavior.
BTW, in closing...that pilot friend's widow, I'll just call her Jere ,
remained a lifelong friend of ours. We finally lost her several years
ago to a stroke. We miss her very much.
Somewhere on this planet, a complete stranger, a person with a camera
who didn't know her, and could have cared less about her, has a picture
he took without her permission, at the most horrible and personal moment
of her life,that allows him to share that moment in time with her.
I hope he chokes on it!
And this is just ONE instance of many I've experienced through the years
concerning "crash photographers with a "hobby"!!!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

"Newps" wrote in message
...


Casey Wilson wrote:

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:40p_c.102614$9d6.102101@attbi_s54...

Is this true? Do NASCAR attendances really exceed those of football
(soccer)?

I have no way to verify that -- it's just what the media has been

spouting.

I suppose it's not surprising, since a single race can have several

hundred

thousand "fans" in attendance.
--
Jay Honeck


The media out here in SoCal are claiming that the weekend's
attendance at the Fontana Raceway will exceed the count at three NFL
Super
Bowls.

According to:
http://netscape.nascar.com/2004/news...30/california/
"92,000 -- The announced grandstand seating capacity of California
Speedway. "

The actual count is 92,109 according to the Speedway officials, but
hey.....

Oh, I should also point out that is the number of seats in the
grandstands -- it does not include all the RVs parked around the infield.


A NASCAR race gets more than any ONE footbal game. But more spectators
than the NFL on any weekend? Not in a million years.

Let alone proper football, what you guys call soccer.

John

Yes, a "sigh" is what I would expect from someone who would feel the
need to supply this tidbit of more or less obvious information to
someone else who has spent a lifetime directly involved with the
environment and hardly needs the information explained by someone who
hasn't.

I'll say one last thing about this, Dudley, and then we'll move on:

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers, but my "obvious" examples were meant to
expand on my ethical point -- not to "educate you" about air racing.

Remember, I wasn't the one expressing dismay and surprise that someone would
actually take a picture (or video) of a plane crash and its aftermath.
Since, to me, this is the ultimate in "more or less obvious information" --
I was quite surprised that you were upset that someone would do this.

Which is why I asked about your logic in the first place.

Sorry I asked.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:0_B_c.296222$eM2.104090@attbi_s51...
Yes, a "sigh" is what I would expect from someone who would feel the
need to supply this tidbit of more or less obvious information to
someone else who has spent a lifetime directly involved with the
environment and hardly needs the information explained by someone
who
hasn't.

I'll say one last thing about this, Dudley, and then we'll move on:

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers, but my "obvious" examples were meant
to
expand on my ethical point -- not to "educate you" about air racing.

Remember, I wasn't the one expressing dismay and surprise that someone
would
actually take a picture (or video) of a plane crash and its aftermath.
Since, to me, this is the ultimate in "more or less obvious
information" --
I was quite surprised that you were upset that someone would do this.

Which is why I asked about your logic in the first place.

Sorry I asked.

You don't have to be sorry you asked. The "problem" didn't occur because
you "asked". The problem occurred because what you were "asking" and the
reasons I have for objecting are two different issues that you see as
one simple issue involving a simple definition of the ethics involved.
The "ethics" that I was attacking and will always continue to attack are
not as clearly cut as you would like to have them. The physical act of
taking a picture at an air show disaster is only the tip of a large
iceberg. The REASON for taking that picture, and what the photographer
does with the picture after it's been taken is the area of my concern,
NOT the fact that the picture was taken per se, which seems to be the
crux of everything you have been attempting to "explain" to me.
There is nothing improper about taking photographs or filming a video
during an air race or air show disaster IF the reason for taking these
pictures isn't prurient. A video shot as a record of the event or to be
used as news of the event is one thing. That's ethical. A video of a
crash used in a safety program designed to help prevent the same
accident from happening again is more than ethical. It's advisable!
On the other hand, there are those who take these photographs and film
these videos for no other reason than their own prurient interest; a
record for them personally to "enjoy" watching and to pass on to others
in the public forum as their " the thrill of the day". Photographers who
use these photographs in their "hobby" and present them to the public
seeking only acclaim for their skill as photographers are completely
unethical to us in the airshow community. These people, displaying an
aspect of human nature that will unfortunately always be with us, are in
my opinion unethical. On the airshow circuit we think of them as human
leeches standing there with their cameras waiting for one of us to die
so they can catch the moment on film to later be released by them for
their own purpose unrelated to anything but their own amusement or
profit.
The only ethics involved with this issue are the ethics involved for the
reasons the camera shutter clicks. There are good reasons and there are
bad reasons. The photographers I have so strongly objected to are the
one's with the "bad" reasons; the thrill seekers; the "hobbyists".
Any race or airshow pilot will tell you that the existence of crash
video is a given, and we understand that there will be pictures if
something goes wrong for us. In a way, we welcome it, because it might
help save another pilot's life, but none of us accept the leech
photographers, the paparazzi type, who come to exploit us when something
goes wrong.
These "hobby" video people fit into the unethical category for us, and
yes, we detest them!
As for people outside the airshow community discussing an issue like
this one with us; everyone of course has the right to an opinion, but
it's better that you ASK, rather than TELL when you get into something
as close to the show community as this issue. That's just a friendly
suggestion. Pilots from the community don't mind opposing viewpoint. We
do however, like a pilot to have some actual experience with what we do
before expressing that opinion too loudly :-)
I hope you and I have no hard feelings after this issue has been put
down and can continue our Usenet association in a friendly manner.
Thank you
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet