The NW overflight, what REALLY happened

wrote:
When a pilot leaves to use the restroom, it is customary for the other
pilot to brief him on his return on "any changes", such as altitude,
heading, course changes or atc center frequency changes, etc. In this
instance, nothing was said....even though the f/o had received a
frequency change. The problem that occurred was that the f/o never got
a response on the new frequency....it was not the correct
frequency....it was a Winnipeg Canada Center Freq.

It really sounds like the F/O screwed up at this point, for reasons that
aren't given. If I understand the regs correctly, he was technically PIC
when this pivotal error in procedure happened.

Then Tim told the f/o that the new bidding system was horrible and
that his November schedule was not what he hoped for. He mentioned
that his son was going into the Army in Dec. and he wanted certain
days off so he could see him off.....the f/o said he could help him,
he knew more about the new bidding system. Tim got his lap top out and
put it on his left leg and showed the f/o how he bid.. He told me he
had his lap top out for maybe 2 minutes. Then the f/o said that he
would show him how to do it on his laptop. He had his laptop out
maximum of 5 minutes.

Let's also add the 100 kt tail wind that they had to the discussion,
not helping matters.

It really sounds like the captain screwed up at this point, for reasons
that are given. Sounds like a classic case of loss of situational
awareness. I don't see how tail wind should matter if navigation is being
attended to periodically.

The f/a's called the cockpit on the interphone (no they did not kick
the door, no, no one was sleeping, no, no one was fighting) and asked
when they will get there. They looked at their nav screens and were
directly over MSP. Because they had their screens set on the max, 320
kt setting, when the f/o called on the frequency, which of course was
Winnipeg Center, he saw Eau Claire and Duluth on his screen. They
asked where they were and the f/o told them over Eau Claire, which was
not even close, but MSP had disappeared from the screen even though
they were right over the city.

So they didn't fly past their destination (much?) - but did they fly past
their clearance limit? I presume they should have alert and prepared for
the expected handoff from center to approach well before arriving over
MSP in any case.

ATL FAA is really big on this new regulation which will allow pilots
to take a short nap in flight so they will be rested for the
approach...they were insistent that they were sleeping.

Not sure I follow - ATL FAA was insistent they were sleeping?

When Tim and his wife were in MSP for a meeting with the NTSB, they
happen to be staying at the same hotel as the NTSB was. The next
morning in the lobby, the NTSB official came over to Tim and said he
did not know why they even called them in for this event. There was no
safety issue. Also, MSP Center informed Delta that there never was a
problem and no aircraft were near their plane. Even though no radio
communications, they had been followed and separated.

Put bluntly, if comm failure to _one_ aircraft were considered an
immediate safety issue to any other aircraft, then the whole point of ATC
would seem to be a big joke.

On Dec 20, 5:07*pm, wrote:
Subject: NWA overflight

So there were so many factors which helped to cause this episode.
Anyone would have likely prevented it.....properly checking in on the
new frequency would have been the first one.....


Missing radio calls or even multiple radio calls is one thing. Missing
Minneapolis is another. Pilots MUST remain aware of where they are.
--
Gene Seibel
Tales of flight - http://pad39a.com/gene/tales.html
Because we fly, we envy no one.

In article
,
Gene Seibel wrote:

On Dec 20, 5:07Â*pm, wrote:
Subject: NWA overflight

So there were so many factors which helped to cause this episode.
Anyone would have likely prevented it.....properly checking in on the
new frequency would have been the first one.....


Missing radio calls or even multiple radio calls is one thing. Missing
Minneapolis is another. Pilots MUST remain aware of where they are.

Yes, that is the only thing that matters here. They lost situational
awareness under completely benign conditions. That this did not result
in a catastrophe was pure luck. That other people screwed up as well is
irrelevant -- they were the pilots. If a pilot can't keep track of
where his plane is he has no business flying, let alone carrying
passengers for hire.

rg

In article ,
says...

Yes, that is the only thing that matters here. They lost situational
awareness under completely benign conditions. That this did not result
in a catastrophe was pure luck. That other people screwed up as well is
irrelevant -- they were the pilots. If a pilot can't keep track of
where his plane is he has no business flying, let alone carrying
passengers for hire.

rg

To me, that rhetoric falls flat. I am an instrument rated PPL (like many
here, yet unlike some of the most vociferous) and from what we know of the
event I believe it is hyperbole at best to state "That this did not result
in a catastrophe was pure luck." I believe we are very far from a
catastrophic scenario, and that lives were never in danger here. (Yes, I
would fly with them). I find it perfectly appropriate that they should be
terminated by the airline, because they denigrated the image of the
company and affected some peoples' confidence in them, but certificate
action beyond a short suspension seems harsh to me.

Isn't there a "Fear of Flying" newsgroup? Some contributers here might
feel more at home over there...

On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:45:03 +0100, -b- wrote:

To me, that rhetoric falls flat. I am an instrument rated PPL (like many
here, yet unlike some of the most vociferous)

You talking to me, boyo? If so, you need to know that a
good meal for me is grilled rattler with beans, and a
big cold glass of cougar milk. Cactus thorn for a
tooth pick. Get it?
--
Mark inventor/artist/pilot/guitarist/scientist/philosopher/
scratch golfer/cat wrangler and observer of the mundane.
And much much more including wealthy beyond anything you can imagine.
My website http://www.hosanna1.com/

Well, I'm truly sorry to deflate your prentention, but in fact I was
responding to someone else, your own existance having escaped my scrutiny
heretofore. This misgiving corrected through your efforts, I must confess it
changes little in the analysis, but I would hasten to add that help IS
available. With therapy you can overcome your fear and fly again, like other
people.




In article , says...


On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:45:03 +0100, -b- wrote:

To me, that rhetoric falls flat. I am an instrument rated PPL (like many
here, yet unlike some of the most vociferous)

You talking to me, boyo? If so, you need to know that a
good meal for me is grilled rattler with beans, and a
big cold glass of cougar milk. Cactus thorn for a
tooth pick. Get it?
--
Mark inventor/artist/pilot/guitarist/scientist/philosopher/
scratch golfer/cat wrangler and observer of the mundane.
And much much more including wealthy beyond anything you can imagine.
My website http://www.hosanna1.com/