Separating the men from the boys

On 11/3/03 5:24 AM, in article , "Doug
"Woody" and Erin Beal" wrote:

On 11/2/03 8:08 PM, in article , "Mike
Kanze" wrote:

Woody,

Back in the day when I flew VA (the REAL Medium Attack kind--not that
Corsair stuff), our SOP called for a 200 FT AGL minalt that we flew at very
regularly--500 FT AGL night/IMC.

My recollection as well, from the early 1970s.

Not sure, but I THINK that on the OB-16 route (Eastern Oregon canyons) A-6s
were authorized lower than 500 AGL at night if the system was tight and the
crew felt OK about things.

Owl sends.

Owl,

I think that the OB-16 turned into the IR-346... Great route... Not the
VR-1355 through the Cascades, but still a lot of fun.

I can still remember my first night low-level on that route when I finally
had enough guts to peak outside on a 1/4 moon night only to see the shadows
of the huge mountains surrounding me.

I quickly buried my head in the instruments again realizing that the "video
game" in front of me had pretty stiff consequences if I lost. I'm sure
we've all had those personal moments. Probably doesn't compare to the 'Nam
though.

--Woody


I meant peek outside. Excuse the pun and the spelling.

"JamesF1110" wrote in message
...
If it were anybody else, CAG wouldhave pitched him off the fantail
afterwards, but because it was Hunyack,nothing of consequence (that a
lowly
LTJG would know about) ever happened

Why the special dispensation?

I have no idea other than the fact that he was a helluva stick. Not very
smart and certainly not a great administrator (he left that area up to his
XO, J.L. Johnson, who was later CNO), but he was a great pilot.

__!_!__
Gizmo

Woody,

What I actually *did* as a young idiot and what was 3710/SOP are two
different stories, of course.

3710/SOP aside, we were operating during the very end of the VN war. There
was a higher level of tolerance / looking-the-other-way by the low rocket
numbers back then.

Big sea change came in late 1973 / early 1974: end of actual US-involved VN
hostilities, Yom Kippur War / Arab oil embargo / fuel shortages, severe
throttling back of budget dollars and flight hours - and much more attention
to the bureaucratic i-dotting and t-crossing.

IOW, the fun was over.

Personal records. 100'AGL over water at night at mil power--same as you.
(Why? Because I was dumb. It's not like anyone can see you or you get
extra points for going that low and fast.)

Not QUITE as dumb as all that. Remember - in the Intruder there were TWO
pairs of eyes looking forward through the same windscreen. If the VS
community could do it - albeit at lower airspeeds - so could we.

500' AGL up the John Day River Valley at night in the goo. B/N's radar was
practically a pin point. Both of us agreed not to do that any more.

Now think about what that might have been like with an "A" system. BG

Owl's personal record: Daylight / VMC ~30' AGL at 360 over a VERY FLAT
section of
desert somewhere in the Chocolate Mountains range for about 2 - 3 minutes.
Dave, my stick, was a married man so we didn't press it beyond that.

******

As a new outfit back then, VA-95 was EXTREMELY fortunate. A former SPAD
squadron that also had a one-cruise flirtation with A-4s during the 1960s,
VA-95 was reestablished as the last VN-era A-6 squadron in 1972. The
Lizards were mainly a bunch of nuggets, yours truly among them. Only one or
two of the senior O-3s had cruised before. Senior leadership was a mix
of "pre-enjoyed" A-6 folks and A-4 community retreads. At this stage of
hostilities, A-6 talent was spread very thinly throughout the fleet.

This is a recipe for potential disaster for a new squadron, shooting
happening or not. But despite this, and the loss of a crew at Boardman
during workups, we had no mishaps during my stay with them - including the
entire 1973 cruise. I attribute this mainly to our (we nuggets) KNOWING how
little we knew and thus our paying strict attention to the details. (There
was also a little of the "I don't want to be the last guy killed in VN"
thinking in there as well.)

We thus spared ourselves from doing many of the dumb things others had done,
flying low aside.

--
Mike Kanze

436 Greenbrier Road
Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259
USA

650-726-7890

"When was the last time in world history in which 'suicide' and 'martyrdom'
were the code of enlightened action admired by any society?"

- Roy Fassel (WALL STREET JOURNAL, 10/27/03)


"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" wrote in message
...
On 11/2/03 10:16 PM, in article
, "Elmshoot"

wrote:
[rest snipped]

OBTW... 1.15M on the meter coming back from an FCF A. I don't think we were
actually supersonic though.


Woody,
Before Chuck Suwells (SP) (Grumman test pilot) demise. He said that the A-6
would not go supersonic. He tried straight down and full power with no luck. He
also did a road show were he would take A-6 pilots up in the right seat and
spin the A-6 as a demo. Now thats some quality Special Crew time.

He did say the Prowler would go Supersonic. I tried many times and I guess I
did it but no one ever called to complain about the supersonic boom. I also ran
into the Mach tuck mentioned in the NAtops manual. It seemed to be airframe
specific. Most Prowlers it was barely noticeable but we had one that would
pitch down 3-5 degrees. It would really get everyones attention. Once we
understood what was happening it was OK but I damn near overstressed the plane
the first time it happened.

Sparky

Doug- Pechs, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Now that you mention
it, I
do remember flying low-levels with the Tomcat guys and having the SOP
difference come up. I'm pretty sure that's what it was--a community
differences issue. BRBR

Think so too, and remember I was in Turkeys when they were A-A only..But my SOP
in VF-126 was 500 ft AGL as well...altho I have looked up at the tops of cactus
around the Yuma A-A range...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" wrote in message
...
On 11/1/03 9:05 AM, in article
,
"Pechs1" wrote:

rmoore- Flying at 200 feet we did 90-degree
turns
at 550 mph BRBR


Oopps. I'm sure he meant 500 feet....
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
Phlyer

What's wrong with 200 feet?


Nothing! 20, 200, 2,000, 20,000 feet. Its all the same as long as you
don't
bump into anything.

Red Rider

On west pac 82 while bored on Gonzo station severial Turkeys made High
speed runs past our ship and we would give them a grade...
breaking the bordom...

The (I beleive it was ) XO of the Black Lions made a high speed (about
..95m ) pass while inverted.
I was on the 03 level of the USS bainbridge and saw the underside of a his
turkey... AGL was an estimated 50ft.
He won but that did seem to end the game...


Jim

On 11/4/03 9:41 AM, in article ,
"Pechs1" wrote:

Doug- Pechs, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Now that you mention
it, I
do remember flying low-levels with the Tomcat guys and having the SOP
difference come up. I'm pretty sure that's what it was--a community
differences issue. BRBR

Think so too, and remember I was in Turkeys when they were A-A only..But my
SOP
in VF-126 was 500 ft AGL as well...altho I have looked up at the tops of
cactus
around the Yuma A-A range...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Pechs,

I thumbed through 3710 today just to refresh my own knowledge. In my quick
perusal of the flight rules section, I could find no references to an
absolute minimum altitude for flying Navy aircraft.

There are some "refer to FAR part 91" words, and a discussion in the MTR
section about staying within the route structure both vertically and
laterally (typically no lower than 01 AGL on even the sportiest routes), but
no specific reference to an absolute MINALT.

BUT... In the ACM training rules section there is mention that pilots not
being LATT qual'ed must stay above 500' AGL and pilots with formal LATT
training must be above 200' AGL.

I believe that TYPE WING and squadron SOP's set the hard minimums.

--Woody

"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" wrote...

I thumbed through 3710 today just to refresh my own knowledge. In my quick
perusal of the flight rules section, I could find no references to an
absolute minimum altitude for flying Navy aircraft.

Look at par 5.2.6.a on page 5-15.

On 11/4/03 9:17 PM, in article xZZpb.108555$HS4.919278@attbi_s01, "John R
Weiss" wrote:

Look at par 5.2.6.a on page 5-15.

Thanks, JR...

I thought it was in there somewhere... guess my perusal was too quick!

Quote:

"Except when necessary for takeoff and landing
or when the mission of the flight requires otherwise,
flights in fixed-wing aircraft shall not be
conducted below an altitude of 500 feet above the
terrain or surface of the water."

That sticky gray area for CO's is that first sentence isn't it? Formal LATT
training gets around that these days, but I could SWEAR that number was 200'
AGL in the late '80's - early '90's.

--Woody

I know you guys are talking jets, but there is nothing in the NATOPS against
flying heloes right down in the rotorwash - ten to fifty feet was completely
common, depending on what we were doing. While that much is obvious, there was
also no restriction against scuttling around at insanely low altitudes and
lethal speeds. I know 120 knots is peanuts to you guys, but I have had pilots
(a particular one in mind) that would fly the helo at absolute top speed, with
the nose of the helicopter 10 feet above the sea. Being in the back during
such a stunt, I felt that one ill-timed glance and the pilot would dump us face
first into the water.

Each time a pilot elected to fly in this particular flight attitude (tail high,
nose down, balls out and skimming), I made it a habit to unstrap and go
forward, carefully sitting on the radio control panel between the pilots.
(Kind of sidesaddle, with my legs toward the door and my torso turned
sideways, with my left shoulder almost up even with the pilots.) Excellent
vantage point, providing me with every bit as exciting a ride as the pilots.
Typically, my choice of seating caused a bit of ICS chatter, with one or both
of them asking some variation of WTFAYD? I said, "If I'm going to get
vaporized on impact while you guys are having fun, I at least want to be able
to see it coming." Discussion never went beyond that and at whatever point
they switched to practicing something else, I'd go back, give a cabin status
report and strap in.

My reasoning for this is that there is no way to use my radar when we have the
tail 30 degrees higher than the nose, with a radar horizon fifty feet out, so
why stay in my seat during one of those sprints? I would have preferred sitting
in the door, but NATOPS commanded the door be closed over 90 knots -
spoil-sports...

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."