121.5 ELTs banned

On Jun 22, 1:13Â*pm, wrote:
On Jun 22, 11:43Â*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:



On Jun 22, 7:32Â*am, jb92563 wrote:

On Jun 21, 4:01Â*pm, brian whatcott wrote:

Since satellite cover has been withdrawn for 121.5
(High false alert rate, poor localization)
406.0 and 406.1 ELTs will be needed, following a recent FCC determination.

Brian W

Since the bereaucrats love so many rules, why not make another and let
Gliders and ballons use PLB's like SPOT since in our sport we often
have support crews that will monitor our progress in any case, making
SPOT a very convenient tool for us and our crews.

Ray.

First a SPOT is *not* a PLB. A PLB is a specific device regulated by
the FCC that transmits on 406 MHz to COAPAS-SARSAT (and also a 121.5
homing becon). It is essentially a lower power, smaller, manually
activated 406 MHz ELT.

SPOT is a private service run by Globalstar. The (multi-)government
service is COSPAS-SARSAT and that provides pretty impressive emergency
notification service for marine (EPIRB), Aviation (ELT) and private
(PLB) use. It makes no sense for he government to promote SPOT over
SARSAT-COSPAS.

There is no federal requirement for a glider to carry an ELT. There is
an apparently well intended but badly outdated SSA contest rule that
allows a CD to require gliders to carry an ELT. The issue I have with
that is a 406 MHz PLB is likely a much better SAR alerting device than
an old 121.5 MHz ELT even if you could properly mount one in the
glider. ELTs in light aircraft have an abysmal activation failure
record, and I suspect that will be much worse in gliders with many of
them improperly mounted and the lower impact energy of many glider
crashes. SPOT tracking is great, a 10 minute position report gives you
a simple area of uncertainty roughly about the same as an old SARSAT
121.5 MHz Doppler fix, but because you can usually use the glider path
to predict the flight direction it's actually better than that. At
least it's a good start for a search operation. If the pilot can
activate "911" on their SPOT and it gets a view of the Globalstar
satellites and a GPS fix then their final position is know as well. I
prefer the redundancy of havign both SPOT and a PLB and the technical
advantages of a PLB for that ultimate distress situation, but if I am
in distress can I'll be activating 911 on my SPOT and activating my
PLB. At a minimum the old SSA contest rule for ELTs could be modified
to allow a CD if they choose to require SPOT and/or "406 MHZ PLB or
ELT carriage".

Darryl

SSA competition rules provide the option for contest organizers to
require these types of devices. Currently, if a glider is impact ELT
equipped, it will satisfy this requirement. Organizers may also permit
SPOT as an alternative to impact activated ELT's , but currently can't
require SPOT instead of impact actiaved ELT's. The rules continue to
evolve as capabilities change.
The Contest Committee is on record as strongly suggesting use of some
kind of safety device by all participants.
I currently have a 121.5 impact activated ELT, 406 PL, and SPOT.
Something should work.
UH
SSA Competition Rules Committee Chair

Uh actually, while this has changed a bit for the better the rules
still have problems, especially with respect to not encouraging use of
406 MHZ PLB devices. Here is the corresponding part of the 2010 Sport
Class Regionals Rules...



6.5.2 ‡ Emergency Location Devices
Emergency Location Devices are electronic devices that may be used to
assist in locating downed sailplanes. Each must be a standard
production model produced in quantity by a reputable manufacturer.
6.5.2.1 ‡ The following categories of Emergency Location Devices are
recognized:
6.5.2.1.1 ‡ Type 1: Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) - an impact-
activated beacon conforming to FAA TSO C91, C91a or
C126.
6.5.2.1.2 ‡ Type 2: Position tracker - a device that without pilot
action transmits regular reports of an aircraft's in-flight position
in
such a way that these reports are readily available to contest
officials in near real time.
6.5.2.2 ‡ When announced on the Application For Sanction form, a
device in one of these categories (as specified by contest
organizers) shall be required in every sailplane. When Type 2 devices
are specified, a Type 1 device shall be considered an
acceptable substitute.
6.5.2.3 ‡ Notwithstanding other provisions within these Rules,
Emergency Location Devices shall not be considered proscribed 2-
way communication devices Rule 6.6.3.




Here the SSA is calling out impact activated ELTs for possible
requirement for a contest. There is no allowance in these rules for a
406 MHz PLB. A PLB is certainly not impact activated (and whether an
ELT will anywhere near reliably impact activate is a big IF). An PLB
is also not manufactured to meet TSO requirements - they do meet
strict FCC and RTCM requirements (Radio Technical Commission for
Marine Services - yes I know they are not for Marine use, but that is
where the specs come from). Especially when considering the rules
allow crappy old 121.5 Mhz only ELTs -- jeez even TSO C91 devices that
are really antiquated and often problematic. There is no sane way to
argue that a modern 406 MHz PLB should not be allowed in this list.
I've tried to point out this silliness in the SSA rules in the past,
it now allows SPOT trackers, great, but it still does not allow a PLB
and continues to allow really old 121.5 MHz piece of crap ELTs.

So do you agree this is a problem? Anybody going to look at fixing
this?


Darryl

On Jun 22, 3:35Â*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jun 22, 1:13Â*pm, wrote:





On Jun 22, 11:43Â*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:

On Jun 22, 7:32Â*am, jb92563 wrote:

On Jun 21, 4:01Â*pm, brian whatcott wrote:

Since satellite cover has been withdrawn for 121.5
(High false alert rate, poor localization)
406.0 and 406.1 ELTs will be needed, following a recent FCC determination.

Brian W

Since the bereaucrats love so many rules, why not make another and let
Gliders and ballons use PLB's like SPOT since in our sport we often
have support crews that will monitor our progress in any case, making
SPOT a very convenient tool for us and our crews.

Ray.

First a SPOT is *not* a PLB. A PLB is a specific device regulated by
the FCC that transmits on 406 MHz to COAPAS-SARSAT (and also a 121.5
homing becon). It is essentially a lower power, smaller, manually
activated 406 MHz ELT.

SPOT is a private service run by Globalstar. The (multi-)government
service is COSPAS-SARSAT and that provides pretty impressive emergency
notification service for marine (EPIRB), Aviation (ELT) and private
(PLB) use. It makes no sense for he government to promote SPOT over
SARSAT-COSPAS.

There is no federal requirement for a glider to carry an ELT. There is
an apparently well intended but badly outdated SSA contest rule that
allows a CD to require gliders to carry an ELT. The issue I have with
that is a 406 MHz PLB is likely a much better SAR alerting device than
an old 121.5 MHz ELT even if you could properly mount one in the
glider. ELTs in light aircraft have an abysmal activation failure
record, and I suspect that will be much worse in gliders with many of
them improperly mounted and the lower impact energy of many glider
crashes. SPOT tracking is great, a 10 minute position report gives you
a simple area of uncertainty roughly about the same as an old SARSAT
121.5 MHz Doppler fix, but because you can usually use the glider path
to predict the flight direction it's actually better than that. At
least it's a good start for a search operation. If the pilot can
activate "911" on their SPOT and it gets a view of the Globalstar
satellites and a GPS fix then their final position is know as well. I
prefer the redundancy of havign both SPOT and a PLB and the technical
advantages of a PLB for that ultimate distress situation, but if I am
in distress can I'll be activating 911 on my SPOT and activating my
PLB. At a minimum the old SSA contest rule for ELTs could be modified
to allow a CD if they choose to require SPOT and/or "406 MHZ PLB or
ELT carriage".

Darryl

SSA competition rules provide the option for contest organizers to
require these types of devices. Currently, if a glider is impact ELT
equipped, it will satisfy this requirement. Organizers may also permit
SPOT as an alternative to impact activated ELT's , but currently can't
require SPOT instead of impact actiaved ELT's. The rules continue to
evolve as capabilities change.
The Contest Committee is on record as strongly suggesting use of some
kind of safety device by all participants.
I currently have a 121.5 impact activated ELT, 406 PL, and SPOT.
Something should work.
UH
SSA Competition Rules Committee Chair

Uh actually, while this has changed a bit for the better the rules
still have problems, especially with respect to not encouraging use of
406 MHZ PLB devices. Here is the corresponding part of the 2010 Sport
Class Regionals Rules...



6.5.2 ‡ Emergency Location Devices
Emergency Location Devices are electronic devices that may be used to
assist in locating downed sailplanes. Each must be a standard
production model produced in quantity by a reputable manufacturer.
6.5.2.1 ‡ The following categories of Emergency Location Devices are
recognized:
6.5.2.1.1 ‡ Type 1: Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) - an impact-
activated beacon conforming to FAA TSO C91, C91a or
C126.
6.5.2.1.2 ‡ Type 2: Position tracker - a device that without pilot
action transmits regular reports of an aircraft's in-flight position
in
such a way that these reports are readily available to contest
officials in near real time.
6.5.2.2 ‡ When announced on the Application For Sanction form, a
device in one of these categories (as specified by contest
organizers) shall be required in every sailplane. When Type 2 devices
are specified, a Type 1 device shall be considered an
acceptable substitute.
6.5.2.3 ‡ Notwithstanding other provisions within these Rules,
Emergency Location Devices shall not be considered proscribed 2-
way communication devices Rule 6.6.3.



Here the SSA is calling out impact activated ELTs for possible
requirement for a contest. There is no allowance in these rules for a
406 MHz PLB. Â*A PLB is certainly not impact activated (and whether an
ELT will anywhere near reliably impact activate is a big IF). An PLB
is also not manufactured to meet TSO requirements - they do meet
strict FCC and RTCM requirements (Radio Technical Commission for
Marine Services - yes I know they are not for Marine use, but that is
where the specs come from). Especially when considering the rules
allow crappy old 121.5 Mhz only ELTs -- jeez even TSO C91 devices that
are really antiquated and often problematic. There is no sane way to
argue that a modern 406 MHz PLB should not be allowed in this list.
I've tried to point out this silliness in the SSA rules in the past,
it now allows SPOT trackers, great, but it still does not allow a PLB
and continues to allow really old 121.5 MHz piece of crap ELTs.

So do you agree this is a problem? Anybody going to look at fixing
this?

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think not including PLB's was intentional. The problem with a PLB is
that in the accident that initiated this rule the PLB would not have
helped since it does not actively transmit its position nor does it
automatically activate upon impact.
The accident that initated this rule was an instantanously fatal
accident in a remote area where the glider would like have not been
found for perhaps years. However since the glider had a functioning
ELT it was found relatively quickly saving much time and effort of the
contest organizers and S&R Teams.

The point being this rule isn't for the pilots it is for the Contest
organizers and ground crews.

Brian

Typical government bureaucracy I don't believe the FCC has thought this
through very thoroughly...in "banning" the use of 121.5 they have also
rendered almost all 406 Mhz ELT's currently on the market as "illegal"
should this pass...almost every new 406MhZ ELT is Dual band, or triple band
and transmits on 121.5/243.0 and 406.0 MHz).
Unless they change the wording this issue is already dead in the water.
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

wrote in message
...
On Jun 22, 11:43 am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jun 22, 7:32 am, jb92563 wrote:

On Jun 21, 4:01 pm, brian whatcott wrote:

Since satellite cover has been withdrawn for 121.5
(High false alert rate, poor localization)
406.0 and 406.1 ELTs will be needed, following a recent FCC
determination.

Brian W

Since the bereaucrats love so many rules, why not make another and let
Gliders and ballons use PLB's like SPOT since in our sport we often
have support crews that will monitor our progress in any case, making
SPOT a very convenient tool for us and our crews.

Ray.

First a SPOT is *not* a PLB. A PLB is a specific device regulated by
the FCC that transmits on 406 MHz to COAPAS-SARSAT (and also a 121.5
homing becon). It is essentially a lower power, smaller, manually
activated 406 MHz ELT.

SPOT is a private service run by Globalstar. The (multi-)government
service is COSPAS-SARSAT and that provides pretty impressive emergency
notification service for marine (EPIRB), Aviation (ELT) and private
(PLB) use. It makes no sense for he government to promote SPOT over
SARSAT-COSPAS.

There is no federal requirement for a glider to carry an ELT. There is
an apparently well intended but badly outdated SSA contest rule that
allows a CD to require gliders to carry an ELT. The issue I have with
that is a 406 MHz PLB is likely a much better SAR alerting device than
an old 121.5 MHz ELT even if you could properly mount one in the
glider. ELTs in light aircraft have an abysmal activation failure
record, and I suspect that will be much worse in gliders with many of
them improperly mounted and the lower impact energy of many glider
crashes. SPOT tracking is great, a 10 minute position report gives you
a simple area of uncertainty roughly about the same as an old SARSAT
121.5 MHz Doppler fix, but because you can usually use the glider path
to predict the flight direction it's actually better than that. At
least it's a good start for a search operation. If the pilot can
activate "911" on their SPOT and it gets a view of the Globalstar
satellites and a GPS fix then their final position is know as well. I
prefer the redundancy of havign both SPOT and a PLB and the technical
advantages of a PLB for that ultimate distress situation, but if I am
in distress can I'll be activating 911 on my SPOT and activating my
PLB. At a minimum the old SSA contest rule for ELTs could be modified
to allow a CD if they choose to require SPOT and/or "406 MHZ PLB or
ELT carriage".

Darryl

SSA competition rules provide the option for contest organizers to
require these types of devices. Currently, if a glider is impact ELT
equipped, it will satisfy this requirement. Organizers may also permit
SPOT as an alternative to impact activated ELT's , but currently can't
require SPOT instead of impact actiaved ELT's. The rules continue to
evolve as capabilities change.
The Contest Committee is on record as strongly suggesting use of some
kind of safety device by all participants.
I currently have a 121.5 impact activated ELT, 406 PL, and SPOT.
Something should work.
UH
SSA Competition Rules Committee Chair

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Peter Hermann wrote:
Scott wrote:
to UHF, it will solve that problem. Until then, you'll either have to

interesting solution.
remains the question whether UHF has better
physical characteristics of range and quality.
...and what about affordability.

As a ham radio operator, I have noticed that the 902 MHz band seems to
have vast improvement in conversing via radio over an obstructed path
(trees. leaves, etc.) than at 430 MHz. Unfortunately, the 902 MHz band
is loaded with unlicensed stuff that might interfere...of course, with
satellite detection, obstructions are generally overcome since the
satellite are "overhead" instead of through miles of forest...

5Z wrote:
On Jun 22, 12:48 am, Peter Hermann wrote:
How to test proper functioning of 406 MHz with 118 - 136 MHz radios?

The 406 ELT's still transmit on 121.5 as well. So the FCC wants to
get rid of 121.5 ONLY units.

-Tom

Phew! I dodged a bullet! My ELT transmits on 121.5 and 243, so I'm good

On Jun 22, 3:45Â*pm, Brian wrote:
On Jun 22, 3:35Â*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:



On Jun 22, 1:13Â*pm, wrote:

On Jun 22, 11:43Â*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:

On Jun 22, 7:32Â*am, jb92563 wrote:

On Jun 21, 4:01Â*pm, brian whatcott wrote:

Since satellite cover has been withdrawn for 121.5
(High false alert rate, poor localization)
406.0 and 406.1 ELTs will be needed, following a recent FCC determination.

Brian W

Since the bereaucrats love so many rules, why not make another and let
Gliders and ballons use PLB's like SPOT since in our sport we often
have support crews that will monitor our progress in any case, making
SPOT a very convenient tool for us and our crews.

Ray.

First a SPOT is *not* a PLB. A PLB is a specific device regulated by
the FCC that transmits on 406 MHz to COAPAS-SARSAT (and also a 121.5
homing becon). It is essentially a lower power, smaller, manually
activated 406 MHz ELT.

SPOT is a private service run by Globalstar. The (multi-)government
service is COSPAS-SARSAT and that provides pretty impressive emergency
notification service for marine (EPIRB), Aviation (ELT) and private
(PLB) use. It makes no sense for he government to promote SPOT over
SARSAT-COSPAS.

There is no federal requirement for a glider to carry an ELT. There is
an apparently well intended but badly outdated SSA contest rule that
allows a CD to require gliders to carry an ELT. The issue I have with
that is a 406 MHz PLB is likely a much better SAR alerting device than
an old 121.5 MHz ELT even if you could properly mount one in the
glider. ELTs in light aircraft have an abysmal activation failure
record, and I suspect that will be much worse in gliders with many of
them improperly mounted and the lower impact energy of many glider
crashes. SPOT tracking is great, a 10 minute position report gives you
a simple area of uncertainty roughly about the same as an old SARSAT
121.5 MHz Doppler fix, but because you can usually use the glider path
to predict the flight direction it's actually better than that. At
least it's a good start for a search operation. If the pilot can
activate "911" on their SPOT and it gets a view of the Globalstar
satellites and a GPS fix then their final position is know as well. I
prefer the redundancy of havign both SPOT and a PLB and the technical
advantages of a PLB for that ultimate distress situation, but if I am
in distress can I'll be activating 911 on my SPOT and activating my
PLB. At a minimum the old SSA contest rule for ELTs could be modified
to allow a CD if they choose to require SPOT and/or "406 MHZ PLB or
ELT carriage".

Darryl

SSA competition rules provide the option for contest organizers to
require these types of devices. Currently, if a glider is impact ELT
equipped, it will satisfy this requirement. Organizers may also permit
SPOT as an alternative to impact activated ELT's , but currently can't
require SPOT instead of impact actiaved ELT's. The rules continue to
evolve as capabilities change.
The Contest Committee is on record as strongly suggesting use of some
kind of safety device by all participants.
I currently have a 121.5 impact activated ELT, 406 PL, and SPOT.
Something should work.
UH
SSA Competition Rules Committee Chair

Uh actually, while this has changed a bit for the better the rules
still have problems, especially with respect to not encouraging use of
406 MHZ PLB devices. Here is the corresponding part of the 2010 Sport
Class Regionals Rules...

6.5.2 ‡ Emergency Location Devices
Emergency Location Devices are electronic devices that may be used to
assist in locating downed sailplanes. Each must be a standard
production model produced in quantity by a reputable manufacturer.
6.5.2.1 ‡ The following categories of Emergency Location Devices are
recognized:
6.5.2.1.1 ‡ Type 1: Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) - an impact-
activated beacon conforming to FAA TSO C91, C91a or
C126.
6.5.2.1.2 ‡ Type 2: Position tracker - a device that without pilot
action transmits regular reports of an aircraft's in-flight position
in
such a way that these reports are readily available to contest
officials in near real time.
6.5.2.2 ‡ When announced on the Application For Sanction form, a
device in one of these categories (as specified by contest
organizers) shall be required in every sailplane. When Type 2 devices
are specified, a Type 1 device shall be considered an
acceptable substitute.
6.5.2.3 ‡ Notwithstanding other provisions within these Rules,
Emergency Location Devices shall not be considered proscribed 2-
way communication devices Rule 6.6.3.

Here the SSA is calling out impact activated ELTs for possible
requirement for a contest. There is no allowance in these rules for a
406 MHz PLB. Â*A PLB is certainly not impact activated (and whether an
ELT will anywhere near reliably impact activate is a big IF). An PLB
is also not manufactured to meet TSO requirements - they do meet
strict FCC and RTCM requirements (Radio Technical Commission for
Marine Services - yes I know they are not for Marine use, but that is
where the specs come from). Especially when considering the rules
allow crappy old 121.5 Mhz only ELTs -- jeez even TSO C91 devices that
are really antiquated and often problematic. There is no sane way to
argue that a modern 406 MHz PLB should not be allowed in this list.
I've tried to point out this silliness in the SSA rules in the past,
it now allows SPOT trackers, great, but it still does not allow a PLB
and continues to allow really old 121.5 MHz piece of crap ELTs.

So do you agree this is a problem? Anybody going to look at fixing
this?

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think not including PLB's was intentional. The problem with a PLB is
that in the accident that initiated this rule the PLB would not have
helped since it does not actively transmit its position nor does it
automatically activate upon impact.
The accident that initated this rule was an instantanously fatal
accident in a remote area where the glider would like have not been
found for perhaps years. However since the glider had a functioning
ELT it was found relatively quickly saving much time and effort of the
contest organizers and S&R Teams.

The point being this rule isn't for the pilots it is for the Contest
organizers and ground crews.

Brian

If so I think this is a misguided reason for getting where thing are.
The goal should be to provide the best SAR alert/location tools
possible at reasonable cost.

Again, the activation of ELTs is problematic. The installation of many
ELTs in gliders is problematic (both antenna placement and physical
mounting). The effect of both of those is ELT provides much less
effective SAR alerting capability than people think--that it worked
once should not drive this strategy.

With the termination of COSPAS-SARSAT monitoring the old 121.5MHz only
ELTs provide awful SAR location capabilities, you need DF equipped
aircraft on site or SAR personnel on the ground. What an awful waste
of time and resources and you may not get them on station in time to
find and save the pilot. Encouraging use of 121.5 MHz ELTs is not
good, including exposing SAR personnel to increased search time and
danger as a result of this. The termination of COSPAS-SARSAT 121.5MHz
monitoring and the availability of low-code 406 MHz PLBs is not
something that happened yesterday, the ELT/PLB part of these rules
seem quite out of date.


Darryl

On Jun 22, 4:03*pm, Scott wrote:
5Z wrote:
On Jun 22, 12:48 am, Peter Hermann wrote:
How to test proper functioning of 406 MHz with 118 - 136 MHz radios?

The 406 ELT's still transmit on 121.5 as well. *So the FCC wants to
get rid of 121.5 ONLY units.

-Tom

Phew! *I dodged a bullet! *My ELT transmits on 121.5 and 243, so I'm good

Probably not actually. They want you on 406 MHz.

Darryl

Peter Hermann wrote:
Darryl Ramm wrote:
For gliders ELT seem very problematic, too hard to mount, antennas

Moreover:
How to test proper functioning of 406 MHz with 118 - 136 MHz radios?


I could be wrong - after just one read through of the regs. But I think
the answer is: "In the usual way" (usual in the US anyway).
Take the ELT out, and strike it on a tire, after noting the allowable
time window. The 406 ELT gives an audio alert, and squawks on 121.5 too.

Brian W

Scott wrote:
brian whatcott wrote:
Since satellite cover has been withdrawn for 121.5
(High false alert rate, poor localization)
406.0 and 406.1 ELTs will be needed, following a recent FCC
determination.

Brian W

I can see the 406 units providing better localization, but how do they
lower the high false alert rate? I assume they still use a "G Switch"
to activate?

I would think that localization could be good on the 121.5 units if they
would be made to accept GPS data and transmit lat/long data when they go
off...

The rationale seems to go like this: the 406 spec is for 4 watts min on
the UHF (Oh, alright = 17dBm) pulsed for nearly 1/2 second per 50 secs
or so for the following 48 to 50 hours... It emits a traceable
signature, which can quickly be associated with a particular aircraft,
so that tracing a likely route is enabled.
The 121.5 continuous signal can help with close in location.
There are apparently as many as nine G-switches built in.
They say the rescue rates on 406 alerts have been MUCH better than 121.5
alerts.

Brian W

T8 wrote:
On Jun 21, 7:01 pm, brian whatcott wrote:
Since satellite cover has been withdrawn for 121.5
(High false alert rate, poor localization)
406.0 and 406.1 ELTs will be needed, following a recent FCC determination.

Brian W

So does that mean that we'll all have to disable the 121.5 MHz output
on our 406(.1) ELTs?

Our tax dollars busily at work, again.

121.5 is still used (exclusively, unless there are recent developments
I'm unaware of) for DF equipment by CAP. Don't suppose they were
consulted.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

It appears that the frequency mix is to be 121.5 + 406.~, but not
121.5 + 243. 121.5 df should remain useful. And CAP will get the
opportunity to rescue pilots in distress, not chase false alarms.
Just ask them about false alerts...

Brian W