100 Hour Inspection Question

I used to use my cherokee 180 as a lease back, when it was over its 100 hours,
As the owner, I was the only one allowed to fly it.

If your renting it, then it must have a current 100 hr inspection. Its not
your airplane, so its a plane for hire. The operator (the flight school) is
responsible for ensuring the maint. on the plane. As the pilot, your
responsible for making sure its been completed before flying it. Its one of
those things to look for when you look through the log book to verify the
annual is up to date and so on.

FryGuy wrote:

I have a question around a 100 hour inspection requirement. I've had time
blocked off at my local FBO for over a month to take a plane this Saturday.
Me and another pilot buddy are taking up the coast of North Carolina and
are going to hit the airports in the Outer Banks and go to the museum in
Kill Devil Hills.

I was just told that the aircraft we are renting is over the 100 hour
inspection requirement. I asked them if they could get it done between now
and then and they said they don't have time. Their argument is that we
won't be doing any flight training and therefore the 100 hour inspection
requirement is not applicable.

I talked with someone at the AOPA and 91.409b says:
"Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no person may operate
an aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) for hire, and no
person may give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that
person provides, unless within the preceeding 100 hours of time in service
the aircraft has received and annual or 100 hour inspection....."

The rep at the AOPA said that their interpretation is that since it is a
rental plane it is "for hire". I talked with the head A&P Mechanic at the
FBO and he said "for hire" only means if their are paying passengers.

I know this plane well and I know it is a good plane. I just don't want to
violate any FARs. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Jeff Frey
PP-ASEL

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 01:19:38 -0800, Jeff wrote:

If your renting it, then it must have a current 100 hr inspection.

I do not believe that to be the case, unless you are also carrying persons
for hire.

The fact that you are renting the airplane is NOT the same as "carrying a
person for hire".

I suspect your lessor's policy was based on something other than the FAR's.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Jeff" wrote in message ...
I used to use my cherokee 180 as a lease back, when it was over its 100 hours,
As the owner, I was the only one allowed to fly it.

Who says? We certainly had FBO/Club employees ferrying aircraft that were
out of 100 hour.

If your renting it, then it must have a current 100 hr inspection.

No, only if the instructor is provided with it or you're carrying passengers for hire.
I have posted both the regulation AND the FAA legal interpreation of the reg on
this thread. There's no requirement for

Its not your airplane,

How did it cease to be my airplane. The FAA still thinks I'm the owner.

so its a plane for hire.

Yes, but immaterial. The 100 hour rule doesn't care about that.

The operator (the flight school) is responsible for ensuring the maint. on the plane.

The flight school is not the operator by the FAA terminology.

As the pilot, your
responsible for making sure its been completed before flying it. Its one of
those things to look for when you look through the log book to verify the
annual is up to date and so on.

Quite true and frequently overlooked by renters.

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:35:06 -0500, "Ron Natalie"
wrote:


"Jeff" wrote in message ...
I used to use my cherokee 180 as a lease back, when it was over its 100 hours,
As the owner, I was the only one allowed to fly it.

Who says? We certainly had FBO/Club employees ferrying aircraft that were
out of 100 hour.

If your renting it, then it must have a current 100 hr inspection.

No, only if the instructor is provided with it or you're carrying passengers for hire.
I have posted both the regulation AND the FAA legal interpreation of the reg on
this thread. There's no requirement for

Its not your airplane,

How did it cease to be my airplane. The FAA still thinks I'm the owner.

so its a plane for hire.

Yes, but immaterial. The 100 hour rule doesn't care about that.

The operator (the flight school) is responsible for ensuring the maint. on the plane.

The flight school is not the operator by the FAA terminology.

As the pilot, your
responsible for making sure its been completed before flying it. Its one of
those things to look for when you look through the log book to verify the
annual is up to date and so on.

Quite true and frequently overlooked by renters.

4 out of 4!

Jeff wrote in :

I used to use my cherokee 180 as a lease back, when it was over its
100 hours, As the owner, I was the only one allowed to fly it.
If your renting it, then it must have a current 100 hr inspection.
Its not your airplane, so its a plane for hire.

You can certainly set up any more restrictive rules you wish, including
limiting flight of the aircraft to only you if it is over 100 hours on the
inspection. However, I think if you will check further, you will find that
you are incorrect as for USA rules by the FAA.

The plane can not be used for hire, meaning air charter, flight instruction
offered by the provider of the aircraft, etc. But it most certainly can be
rented to a pilot for his own private (personal or business) part 91
flight.

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

Dear Mr. Knox:

I'm afraid you are mistaken.

Renting out an aircraft is a commercial operation in itself, and an aircraft
cannot be used in any operation for compensation or hire beyond the currency of
the 100 hours inspection. An application can be given to the FAA whereby the
FAA can extend this by ten hours - but that is the only break there is.

I can assure you that when a plane is out of a hundred hour inspection that it
cannot be rented out.



"James M. Knox" wrote:

Jeff wrote in :

I used to use my cherokee 180 as a lease back, when it was over its
100 hours, As the owner, I was the only one allowed to fly it.
If your renting it, then it must have a current 100 hr inspection.
Its not your airplane, so its a plane for hire.

You can certainly set up any more restrictive rules you wish, including
limiting flight of the aircraft to only you if it is over 100 hours on the
inspection. However, I think if you will check further, you will find that
you are incorrect as for USA rules by the FAA.

The plane can not be used for hire, meaning air charter, flight instruction
offered by the provider of the aircraft, etc. But it most certainly can be
rented to a pilot for his own private (personal or business) part 91
flight.

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:52:41 -0800, Pat Barry wrote:

Renting out an aircraft is a commercial operation in itself

True

and an aircraft
cannot be used in any operation for compensation or hire beyond the currency of
the 100 hours inspection.

That is NOT what the relevant FAR states

An application can be given to the FAA whereby the
FAA can extend this by ten hours - but that is the only break there is.

I can assure you that when a plane is out of a hundred hour inspection that it
cannot be rented out.

I can assure you that your opinion does not agree with that of most FSDO's.
Which FSDO supports your thesis?


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:52:41 -0800, Pat Barry wrote:

Renting out an aircraft is a commercial operation in itself

True

and an aircraft
cannot be used in any operation for compensation or hire beyond the
currency of
the 100 hours inspection.

That is NOT what the relevant FAR states

An application can be given to the FAA whereby the
FAA can extend this by ten hours - but that is the only break there is.

I can assure you that when a plane is out of a hundred hour inspection
that it
cannot be rented out.

I can assure you that your opinion does not agree with that of most
FSDO's.
Which FSDO supports your thesis?

None for long, if Pat posts their name here.

It must have been some sort of misunderstanding ...

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:52:41 -0800, Pat Barry wrote:

Dear Mr. Knox:

I'm afraid you are mistaken.

Renting out an aircraft is a commercial operation in itself, and an aircraft
cannot be used in any operation for compensation or hire beyond the currency of
the 100 hours inspection. An application can be given to the FAA whereby the
FAA can extend this by ten hours - but that is the only break there is.

I can assure you that when a plane is out of a hundred hour inspection that it
cannot be rented out.


That statement is certain to **** some of the natives off. I'm sure
the "armchair lawyers" of the group (they know who they are) will
start listing and quoting their sacred "FARS" along with their own
interpretation of such, in anticipation of being elevated to the
position of "Armchair Chief Justice".

Pat Barry wrote in :

Renting out an aircraft is a commercial operation in itself,

It's renting of a piece of property. It is a commercial operation and
will require the renter to hold a state sales certificate (although not
have to pay state tax in most states).

aircraft cannot be used in any operation for compensation or hire
beyond the currency of the 100 hours inspection.

But it can be flown by the renter, or his pilot (including a flight
instructor *the renter provides*, as long as it is in annual and
otherwise airworthy. No 100 hour inspection is required.

I can assure you that when a plane is out of a hundred hour inspection
that it cannot be rented out.

I hate to quote FSDO web sites, because they are frequently in error.
But from, for instance, the Albany FSDO website:

"Aircraft rental by itself isn't "for hire," and applicants bring the
airplane to me for the test. However, the aircraft may have a recurring
AD that requires compliance every 100 hours, so although the 100-hour
inspection may be unnecessary, AD compliance may be."

More officially, here's an FAA Chief Counsel letter interp:

May 3, 1984
Mr. Perry Rackers
Jefferson City Flying Service

Dear Mr. Rackers

This is in reply to your request of May 1, 1984, that we render
an opinion regarding the applicability of the 100-hour
inspections requirement of Section 91.169(b) of the Federal
Aviation Regulations to rental aircraft. Section 91.169(b) of
the Federal Aviation Regulations provides that, except as noted
in Section 91.169(c), a person may not operate an aircraft
carrying any person, other than a crewmember, for hire, and may
not give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that
person provides unless, within the previous 100 hours of time
in service, the aircraft has received either an annual or a
100-hour inspection.

If a person merely leases or rents an aircraft to another
person and does not provide the pilot, that aircraft is not
required by Section 91.169(b) of the Federal Aviation Regulations
to have a 100-hour inspection. As noted above, the 100-hour
inspection is required only when the aircraft is carrying a
person for hire, or when a person is providing flight instruction
for hire, in their own aircraft.

If there are any questions, please advise us.

Sincerely,
/s/
Joseph T. Brennan
Associate Regional Counsel

I'm afraid you are mistaken.

Wouldn't be the first time... but not in this case.

jmk