What airplane would fill this mission?

Horsefeathers!

Disposable income is what matters, and a single 24-year-old with a good job
will have more of it than he will likely see again until his kids are out of
college.

The smart thing for him to do is to buy a decent plane that he can afford to
keep in good shape, so that he has a good chance of selling it quickly at a
good price when he decides he wants to buy a condo or go back to school or
something in a few years. This is much better than buying a fancy car that
will simply depreciate to hell the minute he drives it off the lot.

-cwk.

"larsen-tools" wrote in message
news:YCJJb.25884$i55.15222@fed1read06...
Sonny, at your age and income bracket, stick to reading magazines and
renting.
Flying is a rich man's sport, a poor man's fantasy, or an up-scale blue
collar job. You can't afford it.
If you want to fly, go join the air force.

You suggested a Zodiac 601, and I'll agree...

Important to Haves:
- could be kept outdoors (eliminates fabric?)

Not a problem. All metal 6061-T6 corrosion resistant construction.

- can carry 2 people

Yes

- could be eligible for sport pilot flight (1232lbs gross)

Yes, depending on model. A 601HD and a 601XL should be.

- could cruise at 95+ kts

Depending on model. My 601HD cruises at 93kts in real-life.
Obviously a 601XL or HDS will go faster.

- could do limited/basic aerobatics

The 601's are designed for +/- 6g's (ultimate, pilot only). Obviously
not an Extra, but you can certainly perform mild aerobatics (loops,
rolls, wingovers, spins, etc) without problems.

- has at least reasonable short/soft field performance (say
1500-2000' grass)

Yes. My 601HD takes off/lands in 1000 ft even at 7000+MSL.

- is relatively cheap to fly (engine 115hp or so, decent TBO,
5-6gph cruise)

I used a Subaru engine. About 5.5gph fuel burn. Total ownership
costs (excluding purchase price but including maintenace, liability
insurance, fuel) run me around $12/hour. Tie-downs/hanger is extra.

- it's not a one-off design that has no parts support or can't be
insured

Zenith aircraft's been selling them since 1984, with over 1000 flying
worldwide.

- if I have to build it, it needs to be "easy" (I've never built
something, a quoted time of ~400hrs maybe?)

Zenith quotes 400 hours. They've built them in 7 days with amateur
labor at Oshkosh and Sun-n-fun. I built mine in 650 hours including a
full instrument panel and some extras.

Nice to Haves:
- side-by-side seating

Yes

- tricycle gear (mostly for insurance)

Both available. I have the taildragger. My insurance is $280/year
for liability. When I was buying hull insurance it was an extra
$1050/year for $35,000 (same was true when I started flying, when my
TT was 160 hrs with 40 hrs in type).

- could be used to teach my Dad to fly (in terms of flying/landing
qualities..I'm thinking sport-pilot-esqe, so I don't know about the
regulations/legalities yet)

Very docile plane, even the taildragger. I test flew mine having
never been in a Zodiac before, or flown a low-wing plane.

- I'm partial to high-wing, just because of the view down, rather
than the view up.

The view in a Zodiac with it's canopy is so spectacular you'll never
notice that you have to bank to see straight down.

- Is a type-certificated airplane (I am seriously considering a
homebuilt, but would prefer something that I could be flying sooner
rather than later)

Building will clearly take longer than buying... but you'll know the
airplane much better and you'll be able to do the maintenace and
annuals (which can save a lot of money). And then you'll have a
brand-new plane. Build times for Zodiacs range from the 7 days quoted
above to, well, as long as you want to take. I built rather
leisurely (averaged 53 minutes/day) so mine took 2 years.

- could have gyros/ifr certified? This is very low priority, but if
it could not be grounded by "benign" ifr, that would be a bonus

An appropriately equipped Zodiac could be used to "break through" a
ground layer to VFR on top, but would not make an acceptable "hard"
IFR platform. It is simply not stable enough (when you design a plane
you make a tradeoff of stablility for responsiveness - the Zodiac,
being a sport plane, is more nimble than stable.) [Note that I am not
instrument rated, and thus not an expert on what would make an good
IFR platform]

My 601HD with Stratus Subaru, full instruments, NAV/COM & XPDR cost
about $31,000 total.

-Bruce

**********************************
Bruce Bockius
http://www.WhiteAntelopeSoftware.com/zodiac

I was looking for something similar. I have an instrument rating and
about 200 hours. I bought a citabria last year. Don't rule out fabric
or tailwheels. You may find one with good fabric and the metal spar. I
doubt you'll get one in your price range with a metal spar. You must
get a prebuy from a mechanic that knows citabrias and has done many spar
inspections. As far as insurance, I'm paying about $1100/year. That
was with about 20 hours of tailwheel time with 0 in type. Mine is a
1968 7ECA with a gyro panel. It could be used for IFR. I don't imagine
I'd ever use it for that but it could be used to maintain currency.

The only real snag is the side/side seating. As someone already
suggested, the Cessna 150/152 aerobat may suite your needs.

Also, check out the citabria group on yahoo.com. Tons of good
information and many seasoned pilots.

Good luck in your search!

Dave


John B wrote:
Hello all,

I'm looking for an airplane to purchase or build, but I can't find one
that meets all of my needs/wants (yes, I know, all airplanes are a
bucket of compromises). So, I'm asking all of you out there for
advice on any airplanes that would fit this profile.

Important to Haves:
- could be kept outdoors (eliminates fabric?)
- can carry 2 people
- could be eligible for sport pilot flight (1232lbs gross)
- could cruise at 95+ kts
- could do limited/basic aerobatics
- has at least reasonable short/soft field performance (say
1500-2000' grass)
- is relatively cheap to fly (engine 115hp or so, decent TBO,
5-6gph cruise)
- it's not a one-off design that has no parts support or can't be
insured
- if I have to build it, it needs to be "easy" (I've never built
something, a quoted time of ~400hrs maybe?)

Nice to Haves:
- side-by-side seating
- tricycle gear (mostly for insurance)
- could be used to teach my Dad to fly (in terms of flying/landing
qualities..I'm thinking sport-pilot-esqe, so I don't know about the
regulations/legalities yet)
- I'm partial to high-wing, just because of the view down, rather
than the view up.
- Is a type-certificated airplane (I am seriously considering a
homebuilt, but would prefer something that I could be flying sooner
rather than later)
- could have gyros/ifr certified? This is very low priority, but if
it could not be grounded by "benign" ifr, that would be a bonus

From my research, I can't find an airplane that meets all these
ideals. Something like a Citabria might be close, but the fabric
wings/wood spar rule it out (hangars are 5x more expensive than
tiedown at my airport, and you can't get one anyway even if you
wanted). Something like a Zenith Experimental is close, but I don't
think you can do aerobatics in a 601, and the 701 is much more STOL
(and slower cruise) than I want. Also, the sport-pilot criteria are
greatly limiting, so that would probably be the first to go, although
I do have a few friends that are interested in the sport pilot license
and might be potential partners if it can fit.

I'm a 24 year old professional engineer, with about 190hrs total time,
with a private SEL w/ instrument rating. I don't have tons of money
by any means, but I think right now I could afford maybe
$20,000-$30,000 worth of airplane, as long as the operating costs are
reasonably low (in airplane terms ;-) I just want something that I
can fly around on nice days, take friends along sometimes, could learn
to do limited aerobatics (yes, I would definitely take lots of
lessons), and could take on trips of up to 80nm to visit family around
the area.

Thanks everybody, and I welcome any suggestions of airplanes as well
as suggestions of ways to change my criteria above from those who've
been through my experience before.

John Bumgarner

The Titan Tornado S with a Jabiru 2200 would be a nice choice.
http://www.titanaircraft.com/AircraftDetail.asp?PKID=5
--
Have a good day and stay out of the trees!
See ya on Sport Aircraft group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sport_Aircraft/

Ercoupe!!! It's low-wing, other than that it pretty much fits.

for example: http://www.aso.com/i.aso/AircraftVie...craft_id=58543
This is the most expensive one I have ever seen, the vast majority of
htem are less cherry and in the low 20's or high teens.

disclaimer: I have no interest in this plane though I have lusted after it.

John B wrote:

Hello all,

I'm looking for an airplane to purchase or build, but I can't find one
that meets all of my needs/wants (yes, I know, all airplanes are a
bucket of compromises). So, I'm asking all of you out there for
advice on any airplanes that would fit this profile.

Important to Haves:
- could be kept outdoors (eliminates fabric?)
- can carry 2 people
- could be eligible for sport pilot flight (1232lbs gross)
- could cruise at 95+ kts
- could do limited/basic aerobatics
- has at least reasonable short/soft field performance (say
1500-2000' grass)
- is relatively cheap to fly (engine 115hp or so, decent TBO,
5-6gph cruise)
- it's not a one-off design that has no parts support or can't be
insured
- if I have to build it, it needs to be "easy" (I've never built
something, a quoted time of ~400hrs maybe?)

Nice to Haves:
- side-by-side seating
- tricycle gear (mostly for insurance)
- could be used to teach my Dad to fly (in terms of flying/landing
qualities..I'm thinking sport-pilot-esqe, so I don't know about the
regulations/legalities yet)
- I'm partial to high-wing, just because of the view down, rather
than the view up.
- Is a type-certificated airplane (I am seriously considering a
homebuilt, but would prefer something that I could be flying sooner
rather than later)
- could have gyros/ifr certified? This is very low priority, but if
it could not be grounded by "benign" ifr, that would be a bonus

From my research, I can't find an airplane that meets all these
ideals. Something like a Citabria might be close, but the fabric
wings/wood spar rule it out (hangars are 5x more expensive than
tiedown at my airport, and you can't get one anyway even if you
wanted). Something like a Zenith Experimental is close, but I don't
think you can do aerobatics in a 601, and the 701 is much more STOL
(and slower cruise) than I want. Also, the sport-pilot criteria are
greatly limiting, so that would probably be the first to go, although
I do have a few friends that are interested in the sport pilot license
and might be potential partners if it can fit.

I'm a 24 year old professional engineer, with about 190hrs total time,
with a private SEL w/ instrument rating. I don't have tons of money
by any means, but I think right now I could afford maybe
$20,000-$30,000 worth of airplane, as long as the operating costs are
reasonably low (in airplane terms ;-) I just want something that I
can fly around on nice days, take friends along sometimes, could learn
to do limited aerobatics (yes, I would definitely take lots of
lessons), and could take on trips of up to 80nm to visit family around
the area.

Thanks everybody, and I welcome any suggestions of airplanes as well
as suggestions of ways to change my criteria above from those who've
been through my experience before.

John Bumgarner

"TTA Cherokee Driver" wrote in message
...
Ercoupe!!! It's low-wing, other than that it pretty much fits.

- could do limited/basic aerobatics

Only if manufactured prior to June, 1946 (Under the old C.A.R.'s which
lacked the Standard, Utility and Aerobatic classifications).

Rich S.
Ex-owner of N94195, mfg. May, 1946.