Powerflarm results @Seniors

I have installed several FLARM units. Most installations have been
successful, i.e. the detection range is larger that the green area
indicated in the FLARM range analysis. However in one LS-7 I have
not been able to locate antenna right yet. It looks like the compass
of that plane, located on top of the instrument panel, is blocking the
field into 11 clock direction.

My opinion is, that FLARM is a good tool when the antennas are
correctly positioned. It might give you that critical 10 seconds time
to react. However. antenna positioning remains largely unsolved
problem. I await with interest the development of two antenna
systems for PowerFLARM.

We use LED based simple FLARM displays which show the nearest
airplane, green when no danger, and red/alarm in danger.
Additionally we are building connections to devices like Winpilot or
XCSoar to show all nearby traffic detected by FLARM. That is also
great when you are flying with other people - you know where they
are, and what they are doing. Each FLARM unit has it's own code,
and you can nickname them. You might like to know if it's the local
von Richthofen approaching from sun's direction, or someone more
friendly.

At least I know couple pilots who - uh - need more clearance, I
think...

Kimmo, you didn't say where you are located. However, I think you are
outside the US. The Power Flarm being pushed in the US is a different
device then the Flarm units being used successfully in Europe and
other areas.

Also, I think those that are pushing Power Flarm use in the US are
doing a disservice to pilots. The US is mandated to use ADS-B in most
aircraft by 2020. The UAT version of ADS-B was developed specifically
as a lower cost system for general aviation. In addition to traffic
alerts, it also provides ID to ATC, and other services such as weather
and TFR's. It's true that ADS-B in it's raw form doesn't provide the
same alert suppression that Flarm does for gliders. However, it would
not be difficult to add those routines to soaring software in a PDA,
etc. After all, the processor in the Flarm is fairly low power.

Think of what the Power Flarm is trying to do verses what the standard
European Butterfly Flarm. In Europe, the only consideration is Flarm
to Flarm information, including air to air and ground hazards.
PowerFlarm is trying to add transponder and ADS-B information. Now we
require more receivers, more antennas and more processing power. The
software becomes more complicated because of the need to integrate
three entirely different systems. With ADS-B, you have one receiver,
one antenna, etc., and only need to process the ADS-B protocol. I did
neglect to say, both also have a GPS receiver.

I'm not about to become involved in a big discussion (read bitch
session) about why ADS-B won't work for gliders. Some people have
vested interests in pushing Flarm.

Charlie

On Mar 23, 6:57*pm, Kimmo Hytoenen wrote:
I have installed several FLARM units. Most installations have been
successful, i.e. the detection range is larger that the green area
indicated in the FLARM range analysis. However in one LS-7 I have
not been able to locate antenna right yet. It looks like the compass
of that plane, located on top of the instrument panel, is blocking the
field into 11 clock direction.

My opinion is, that FLARM is a good tool when the antennas are
correctly positioned. It might give you that critical 10 seconds time
to react. However. antenna positioning remains largely unsolved
problem. I await with interest the development of two antenna
systems for PowerFLARM.

We use LED based simple FLARM displays which show the nearest
airplane, green when no danger, and red/alarm in danger.
Additionally we are building connections to devices like Winpilot or
XCSoar to show all nearby traffic detected by FLARM. That is also
great when you are flying with other people - you know where they
are, and what they are doing. Each FLARM unit has it's own code,
and you can nickname them. You might like to know if it's the local
von Richthofen approaching from sun's direction, or someone more
friendly.

At least I know couple pilots who - uh - need more clearance, I
think...

On Mar 23, 9:06*am, wrote:


No. I was using the antennas mounted to the rear of the portable unit. It is not easy to find a spot a couple of feet away from the panel which will not have some kind of carbon fiber blockage of the antenna.

Don

I simply ran the wire for mine off to the left side of the glare
shield, then back along the canopy frame and mounted the antenna on
the Plexiglas just aft of the sliding window (ASH-26E) using a bit of
Velcro. Should work reasonably well there I'd think, especially
towards the front.

bumper

On Mar 24, 12:37*am, bumper wrote:
On Mar 23, 9:06*am, wrote:



No. I was using the antennas mounted to the rear of the portable unit. It is not easy to find a spot a couple of feet away from the panel which will not have some kind of carbon fiber blockage of the antenna.

Don

I simply ran the wire for mine off to the left side of the glare
shield, then back along the canopy frame and mounted the antenna on
the Plexiglas just aft of the sliding window (ASH-26E) using a bit of
Velcro. Should work reasonably well there I'd think, especially
towards the front.

bumper

My understanding is that the second antenna is designed for
installation in the tow hook or landing gear area -- areas that do not
have carbon -- to allow flarm to see below the glider. Conventional
flarm can't see down, because there is a big carbon fiber fuselage
blocking downward signals. This is obviously not going to happen in
rental units. The purpose was not as a range booster.

John Cochrane

On Mar 24, 12:05*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Mar 24, 12:37*am, bumper wrote:

On Mar 23, 9:06*am, wrote:

No. I was using the antennas mounted to the rear of the portable unit.. It is not easy to find a spot a couple of feet away from the panel which will not have some kind of carbon fiber blockage of the antenna.

Don

I simply ran the wire for mine off to the left side of the glare
shield, then back along the canopy frame and mounted the antenna on
the Plexiglas just aft of the sliding window (ASH-26E) using a bit of
Velcro. Should work reasonably well there I'd think, especially
towards the front.

bumper

My understanding is that the second antenna is designed for
installation in the tow hook or landing gear area -- areas that do not
have carbon -- to allow flarm to see below the glider. Conventional
flarm can't see down, because there is a big carbon fiber fuselage
blocking downward signals. This is obviously not going to happen in
rental units. The purpose was not as a range booster.

John Cochrane

John,

I was told different by the folks manning the PF booth at the SSA
convention. I specifically asked them how the flat antenna should be
installed (its orientation, as this isn't discussed in the manual) and
it's purpose. After they explained the reason for the antenna, and
that was to improve Flarm receive range, I then asked how badly range
would suffer without it. The answer to the last question was somewhat
vague and iffy - - but my recollection was they said it would work
okay without it, and still have a range of at least a couple of miles,
and better with it. I did leave the booth thinking that the flat
antenna was optional, as it states in the manual, and that range would
at least adequate if I chose not to install it.

From the other posters and my own limited experience, I'm not
confident the range is adequate, or at least not so without the flat
antenna.

The manual states the flat antenna should be located a minimum of 1.2
meters or 4 feet from the PF. The included coax isn't much longer than
that, and will only reach to the back of the canopy in my ship.
Nowhere near long enough to reach the wheel well without an extension.
The wheel well wouldn't be a good location on my 26E anyway, as the
fuselage is CF and there is no practical way to mount it vertically
there with any hope of a clear view RF-wise.

bumper

Charlie,
I am located in Finland, Northern Europe.
Idea of FLARM is good, and when correctly installed (in both
planes approaching) it is a very good system. We have invested
a lot of money into these equipment, and trying to get best use
of those. It is not easy in all planes.
What I would like to see is a streamlined antenna housing, which
is installed into the nose of a glider plane, with build-in dipole
antenna, or half dipole.. Something looking like
http://www.pharad.com/uhf-to-c-band-uav-antenna.html
It should not be to difficult to make those out of class-fiber, or
special plastic. Dipole antenna design is well known.
Possibly we should start another noncommercial project
developing those. Metal foil/PCB antenna in middle or some-kind
composite, streamlined plate. Mounting trough two 5 mm holes.
This should not be rocket-science, and cost should be less than
astronomical (I did ask prices from Pharad...
-kimmo


At 23:58 23 March 2012, cfinn wrote:
Kimmo, you didn't say where you are located. However, I think
you are
outside the US. The Power Flarm being pushed in the US is a
different
device then the Flarm units being used successfully in Europe
and
other areas.

Also, I think those that are pushing Power Flarm use in the US
are
doing a disservice to pilots. The US is mandated to use ADS-B
in most
aircraft by 2020. The UAT version of ADS-B was developed
specifically
as a lower cost system for general aviation. In addition to
traffic
alerts, it also provides ID to ATC, and other services such as
weather
and TFR's. It's true that ADS-B in it's raw form doesn't provide
the
same alert suppression that Flarm does for gliders. However, it
would
not be difficult to add those routines to soaring software in a
PDA,
etc. After all, the processor in the Flarm is fairly low power.

Think of what the Power Flarm is trying to do verses what the
standard
European Butterfly Flarm. In Europe, the only consideration is
Flarm
to Flarm information, including air to air and ground hazards.
PowerFlarm is trying to add transponder and ADS-B
information. Now we
require more receivers, more antennas and more processing
power. The
software becomes more complicated because of the need to
integrate
three entirely different systems. With ADS-B, you have one
receiver,
one antenna, etc., and only need to process the ADS-B
protocol. I did
neglect to say, both also have a GPS receiver.

I'm not about to become involved in a big discussion (read
bitch
session) about why ADS-B won't work for gliders. Some people
have
vested interests in pushing Flarm.

Charlie

On Mar 23, 6:57=A0pm, Kimmo Hytoenen wrote:
I have installed several FLARM units. Most installations have
been
successful, i.e. the detection range is larger that the green
area
indicated in the FLARM range analysis. However in one LS-7
I have
not been able to locate antenna right yet. It looks like the
compass
of that plane, located on top of the instrument panel, is
blocking the
field into 11 clock direction.

My opinion is, that FLARM is a good tool when the antennas
are
correctly positioned. It might give you that critical 10
seconds time
to react. However. antenna positioning remains largely
unsolved
problem. I await with interest the development of two
antenna
systems for PowerFLARM.

We use LED based simple FLARM displays which show the
nearest
airplane, green when no danger, and red/alarm in danger.
Additionally we are building connections to devices like
Winpilot or
XCSoar to show all nearby traffic detected by FLARM. That is
also
great when you are flying with other people - you know
where they
are, and what they are doing. Each FLARM unit has it's own
code,
and you can nickname them. You might like to know if it's
the local
von Richthofen approaching from sun's direction, or
someone more
friendly.

At least I know couple pilots who - uh - need more
clearance, I
think...

Very disappointed to hear of these range issues at the recent Seniors.
I ordered my portable PowerFlarm in August 2010.
Received at Uvalde PreWorlds August 2011 and found it quite
satisfactory during that contest.
(Except for the day I failed to recognize that my profile had changed
from glider to power plane after a battery swap. FP and "59" may never
forgive me.)

I don't expect a magic bullet for collision avoidance, but my Uvalde
experience was as-advertised, and I've been singing its praises since.

At dealer's request and with some misgivings, I shipped my unit back
for the "upgrade" over the winter.
(BTW, I paid shipping each way--was this everyone's experience?)

As the lone PF user so far in our club, I hadn't tried it since the
upgrade.
Loaned it to a friend for this year's Seniors, and am now hearing that
my previously awesome PF now has a range well under a mile.

My faith tested, I sincerely hope all involved recognize this critical
moment for what it is, and act accordingly.

Kimmo, I thought you may be in Europe. I think you may be correct
about developing a dipole antenna. I've had an amateur radio license
for over 50 years, and have made several antennas over that time. The
dipole is a simple design and does not require a ground plane. Flarm
in the US uses a different frequency and the antenna would be to be
cut to a different length.

I have no arguement with Flarm in other areas of the world, were it
has been widely implemented. However, because of the late start for
Flarm in the US, I think it is doing a disservice to pilots here. The
range problem should be resolved in the future. Even if it had 10 km
range, it's the wrong product for US airspace.

Charlie

On Mar 24, 8:07*pm, Kimmo Hytoenen wrote:
Charlie,
I am located in Finland, Northern Europe.
Idea of FLARM is good, and when correctly installed (in both
planes approaching) it is a very good system. We have invested
a lot of money into these equipment, and trying to get best use
of those. It is not easy in all planes.
What I would like to see is a streamlined antenna housing, which
is installed into the nose of a glider plane, with build-in dipole
antenna, or half dipole.. Something looking likehttp://www.pharad.com/uhf-to-c-band-uav-antenna.html
It should not be to difficult to make those out of class-fiber, or
special plastic. Dipole antenna design is well known.
Possibly we should start another noncommercial project
developing those. Metal foil/PCB antenna in middle or some-kind
composite, streamlined plate. Mounting trough two 5 mm holes.
This should not be rocket-science, and cost should be less than
astronomical (I did ask prices from Pharad...
-kimmo

At 23:58 23 March 2012, cfinn wrote:



Kimmo, you didn't say where you are located. However, I think
you are
outside the US. *The Power Flarm being pushed in the US is a
different
device then the Flarm units being used successfully in Europe
and
other areas.

Also, I think those that are pushing Power Flarm use in the US
are
doing a disservice to pilots. The US is mandated to use ADS-B
in most
aircraft by 2020. The UAT version of ADS-B was developed
specifically
as a lower cost system for general aviation. In addition to
traffic
alerts, it also provides ID to ATC, and other services such as
weather
and TFR's. It's true that ADS-B in it's raw form doesn't provide
the
same alert suppression that Flarm does for gliders. However, it
would
not be difficult to add those routines to soaring software in a
PDA,
etc. After all, the processor in the Flarm is fairly low power.

Think of what the Power Flarm is trying to do verses what the
standard
European Butterfly Flarm. In Europe, the only consideration is
Flarm
to Flarm information, including air to air and ground hazards.
PowerFlarm is trying to add transponder and ADS-B

information. Now we



require more receivers, more antennas and more processing
power. The
software becomes more complicated because of the need to
integrate
three entirely different systems. With ADS-B, you have one
receiver,
one antenna, etc., and only need to process the ADS-B
protocol. I did
neglect to say, both also have a GPS receiver.

I'm not about to become involved in a big discussion (read
bitch
session) about why ADS-B won't work for gliders. Some people
have
vested interests in pushing Flarm.

Charlie

On Mar 23, 6:57=A0pm, Kimmo Hytoenen *wrote:
I have installed several FLARM units. Most installations have
been
successful, i.e. the detection range is larger that the green
area
indicated in the FLARM range analysis. However in one LS-7
I have
not been able to locate antenna right yet. It looks like the
compass
of that plane, located on top of the instrument panel, is
blocking the
field into 11 clock direction.

My opinion is, that FLARM is a good tool when the antennas
are
correctly positioned. It might give you that critical 10
seconds time
to react. However. antenna positioning remains largely
unsolved
problem. I await with interest the development of two
antenna
systems for PowerFLARM.

We use LED based simple FLARM displays which show the
nearest
airplane, green when no danger, and red/alarm in danger.
Additionally we are building connections to devices like
Winpilot or
XCSoar to show all nearby traffic detected by FLARM. That is
also
great when you are flying with other people - you know
where they
are, and what they are doing. Each FLARM unit has it's own
code,
and you can nickname them. You might like to know if it's
the local
von Richthofen approaching from sun's direction, or
someone more
friendly.

At least I know couple pilots who - uh - need more
clearance, I
think...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've been flying with PF w/3 antennas in my ASW27 for a couple months
around Minden. I have not had all the problems mentioned- it seems to work
as expected. Of course, we're not in the thermal part of the year. Still,
I've tracked other PF-equipped gliders from miles away with enough clarity
to help me pick them up visually. As more planes are fully equipped and we
start to fly in thermals, we'll know more.

Tom

On 3/24/2012 7:51 PM, Tom Bjork wrote:
I've been flying with PF w/3 antennas in my ASW27 for a couple months
around Minden. I have not had all the problems mentioned- it seems to work
as expected. Of course, we're not in the thermal part of the year. Still,
I've tracked other PF-equipped gliders from miles away with enough clarity
to help me pick them up visually. As more planes are fully equipped and we
start to fly in thermals, we'll know more.

Did you try it without the third antenna? What was the range then? Where
is your 3rd antenna mounted?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)