Air Force One seen by BA pilot

Gary

Not trying to put you down but have lots of experience with 1000 mph +
rates of closure in heavy iron. That's over 16 miles a minute and
about 1500 feet per second. At one eye blink per second that's about
7500 feet for 5 seconds. That's almost a mile and a half travel in the
5 seconds. If it takes the brain 2 seconds to process information a
bird can be pretty dam close before one can try to recognize.

Unless one is forewarned by center, aircrew may or may not see
closing traffic unless pulling a con. Trans ocean traffic is very
boring (as you know being in the business) and no one crew member is
tasked and sits there with an eye ball covering the forward quadrant
during the long cruise portion of flight. In fact some airlines allow
one pilot to nap during fight so he will be sharp at destination I'm
told. They found some pilots were doing this due to late night and
boredom so they made it legal ) Couldn't do that in the fighters so
they gave us Phenobarb (sp) prior to landing.

All of this discussion after the fact is media garbage. Bird with
President aboard does NOT have to use the Call Sign AF!. In Stealth
mode it can be called anything.

I'm just surprised that some media type didn't let the cat out of the
bag unless they took all the cell phones away and gave everyone a pat
down and only let them use the birds com system after they had
departed Iraq and were in International airspace.

No matter what the nay sayer's say, good trip and a boost for those in
Iraq even if he was pretty closely monitored and protected. He did go
in harms way and a brace of mortars could have caused a lot of
casualties and put the media in a frenzy.

Big John

New subject. Where can I get the positive and negative G limits of
commercial birds, 747, 757, 767, etc? I want operational limits not
ultimate. Have looked on Internet and not found so far.



On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 20:34:09 GMT, "Gary Mishler"
wrote:

"Big John" wrote in message
.. .

I thought center gave vertical and horizontal separation for birds on
same over water route?

They do.

Didn't they a few years ago reduce vertical
separation from 2K to 1K if certain (new accurate alt measuring)
equipment was on board the aircraft to increase (double) traffic
density on the overseas routes?

Yes, it's called RVSM = Reduced Verticle Seperation Minimums

If flight was direct from way point to way point then I doubt if the
birds came within visual range??? Would be an odd throw of the dice.

Huh? With all do respect, I do this for a living and there are "birds"
somewhere in the Flight Levels that come within visual range of each other
(both same and opposite direction) every minuite of every day. We are often
able to visually identify company paint schemes and aircraft types (again
both same and opposite direction) all the time. There is nothing odd about
it at all. Plus, with the 1K RVSM sep that you talk about above, it would
be even easier.

That said, I can postulate a situation where two birds with a few
thousand feet vertical clearance going the same direction on the same
route and with different cruising speeds, slowly pass each other and
BA be able to recognize the distinctive paint job on AF1. This in day
light of course.

In the real world "birds" don't just flash past each other in the FL's in
the blink of an eye. Even if opposite direction you usually have several
seconds of good visual (weather conditions permiting, of course) opportunity
for an identification.

Tale has a lot of characteristics of a good bar story ...

I disagree. To those of us in the trenches (er, Flight Levels) it has the
characteristics of an entirley plausable event that happens every day.

Good show George.

Agreed.

Regards,
Mish

Gary Mishler wrote:

"Jay Somerset" wrote in message
...

A tall tale. If another aircraft really had eyeballed "AF1" and called up
as stated, the AF1 pilot would have just ignored the call.

It's been widely reported in both broadcast and print media and has been
confirmed through gov't sources. Knight Ridder Newspapers even printed a
quote from the AF1 captain. No one is trying to keep it a secret.

Pilots Didn't Radio Air Force One, Airline Says
WASHINGTON POST Page A03

"We have spoken to the British Airways captains who were in the area at the
time and neither made comments to Air Force One nor did they hear any other
aircraft make the statement over the radio," Verrier said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2003Dec1.html

A tall tale. If another aircraft really had eyeballed "AF1" and called up
as stated, the AF1 pilot would have just ignored the call.

Also very unlikely that any other aircraft would be able to get into visual
range -- AF1 would have deviated to maintain greater separation. They do
have better than average radar, you know. :-

Thats what I thought. Also, I just realized how stupid it sounds
saying that I assume TFRs are in place wherever AF1 goes, but I do
assume there is some sort of TFRthingamajig overseas.

On 28 Nov 2003 10:37:39 -0800, Milo wrote:

First of all, did that BA pilot have binoculars?
How did he see AF1 with the TFR in place, I assume they are in effect
wherever AF1 goes in the world.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

*Aheeeem* the FAA only works within the US of A. And there are countries
left with their own government and airspace. ;-)

#m
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

Not to mention, of course, that I have yet to see a TFR that follows the
airplane enroute... Besides shutting down half the country's airspace, it
would also be a big-time security breach...

"2/1234 TX.. FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS SOUTHEAST USA DECEMBER 3, 2003 LOCAL.
PURSUANT TO TITLE 14, SECTION 91.141 OF THE CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS,
AIRCRAFT FLIGHT OPERATIONS ARE PROHIBITED ON THE FOLLOWING NAVIGATION
POINTS AND AIRWAY(S) UNLESS OTHERWISE AUTHORIZED BY ATC. ACT V54 LIT
V124 GQE V47 DYR V140 AZQ V115 HVQ V4 ESL V166 MRB V8 DCA
FROM 0312031550 (0950 LOCAL 12/03/03) UNTIL 0312031700 (1100 LOCAL
11/30/03). WIE UNTIL UFN"

Might as well advertise!


Martin Hotze wrote in
:

On 28 Nov 2003 10:37:39 -0800, Milo wrote:

First of all, did that BA pilot have binoculars?
How did he see AF1 with the TFR in place, I assume they are in effect
wherever AF1 goes in the world.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

*Aheeeem* the FAA only works within the US of A. And there are countries
left with their own government and airspace. ;-)

#m

Not to mention, of course, that I have yet to see a TFR that follows the
airplane enroute... Besides shutting down half the country's airspace, it
would also be a big-time security breach...

Of course they do exactly this for a presidential motorcade.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Cub Driver wrote in
:


Not to mention, of course, that I have yet to see a TFR that follows
the airplane enroute... Besides shutting down half the country's
airspace, it would also be a big-time security breach...

Of course they do exactly this for a presidential motorcade.


Perhaps, but the square-footage is much smaller. A presidential motorcade
should only close down a major city or state. The flight plan that I
outlined in my TFR went from Waco, TX to Washington National, closing the
entire southern half of the US...

Not to mention that a terrorist in a Cessna 172 would have more trouble
hitting AF1 in flight and has a much better chance of hitting the
President's Limo with a Water Bomb!

"Judah" wrote in message


I have yet to see a TFR that follows the
airplane enroute...

... Besides shutting down half the country's
airspace,

.... closing the
entire southern half of the US...


Judah, using unbridled hyperbole to try to make a point rarely enhances a
discussion. AF1 movement TFRs do NOT shut down "...the entire southern half
of the US...", as you twice posited. As a general rule, they proscribe a
particular route, but then only "...unless otherwise authorized by ATC...".
X miles before and after passage, other traffic will be allowed to cross
paths. You do, in fact, have a TFR that follows the aircraft (as long as
everything runs smoothly); a moving bubble of airspace kept clear for the
passage of AF1.

Turns out this didn't quite happen as reported. A slight juggling of
facts and a nice story hits the airwaves. Still unfolding.

http://news.excite.com/odd/article/id/370183|oddlyenough|12-04-2003::10:07|reuters.html

-lance smith


(Milo) wrote in message . com...
The news mentioned that while AF1 was enroute to Baghdad Int., a
British Airways pilot saw AF1 and asked (on the horn) "is that AF1?".
Then AF1s' pilot responded "No, it's a Gulfstream". At first I
thought that was funny but then after thinking about it, I'm wordering
how true this is. First of all, did that BA pilot have binoculars?
How did he see AF1 with the TFR in place, I assume they are in effect
wherever AF1 goes in the world. ***I just thought of something as I
was typing this, maybe there was no TFR because Pres. Bush "wasn't
onboard" and it wouldn't have offically been AF1, as far as call sign
and ATC goes, at the time.*** Secondly, if none of that is the case,
why would the BA pilot would ask that question over the radio and what
are the chances the 2 aircraft would be on the same freq.? Just
wondering and speculating, not that it matters either way. If this
did happen, the pilot of AF1 has a great way of saying "Shut the hell
up man, this isn't what you think" wink wink. Very funny.

How did he see AF1 with the TFR in place, I assume they are in effect
wherever AF1 goes in the world.

I don't think the US has that much power that they can get other nations to play the silly airspace
games we go through here.

Margy