non-towered airport question

Whenever I am flying at a non-controlled airport, my primary runway will
be
the one appropriate to the direction of the wind. If the wind changes, I
will change.

What if others are still using the "original" runway?

One of the "problems" with posting to newsgroups is if you leave something
out, it is automatically assumed the writer doesn't do it :-). Thus far,
when that situation has occurred, and the other aircraft haven't made the
adjustment, I will broadcast a CTAF message about the wind/runway change.
Thus far the other aircraft have all followed suit and adjusted to the new
runway. I haven't had the "opportunity" of someone refusing to change.


If I want to do some x-wind landing practice on a different runway from
the
preferred, I will clearly announce my intentions

Not meaning to pick, just curious: do you really announce
"Pepsi County traffic, Cessna 12345 entering left downwind
for 34 for crosswind landing practice" or some such?

Yes. That is exactly what I do when 34 is NOT the desired runway for the
given wind direction. I would rather use an extra 2 seconds of air time and
avoid a potiential problem.


My personal tick on UNICOM is not being able to make necessary
traffic calls in a timely manner because someone is taking up
the frequency with a lengthy announcement full of unnecessary
information. Of course, students gotta learn, but it's often
not students I hear doing it.

Where I fly, the radio "problems" I have encountered isn't so much a long
winded pilot but having to put up with the radio traffic coming from other
uncontrolled airports :-(.

About the only time I get frustrated with the radio traffic is going into a
Class-C airspace and the controllers are so busy I have to go into a
"holding pattern" while waiting to establish communications with them.


Needless to say my outside scanning becomes much more intense in
this situation; you never know when an airplane will be NORDO.

Just to point out that your outside scanning should be IMHO
as intense as you can make it at all times.

See, there you go trying to read between the lines :-)). One day, I had a
C172 take the runway for departure AFTER I had announced turning final for
that runway. I had to do a go-around. Trust me, I am ALWAYS watching. :-)

You never know when
a NORDO aircraft is going to perceive an operational advantage
in using a different runway than you prefer, at any time. You
also never know when someone is going to say one thing and show
up somewhere else. I have to admit I'm usually not directionally
challenged but I've been known to make directionally-challenged
radio calls myself.

You too??? :-) At least I don't feel like the Lone Ranger now. I still have
a hard time deciding if I am approaching from the S.E., N.W., S.W., etc.


Also, if the airport is busy on that particular day, I will defer my
practices until another time.

Well, how do you define busy? One other aircraft? Two? Four?
Seven?

That is a hard question to answer. I just depends on what the other aircraft
are doing. I have left the area with 2 in the pattern and have stayed with
as many as 5. But, if it is "busy" I will not deviate from the pattern that
the others are using. When I was a student, our practice area wasn't too far
from the uncontrolled airport we would practice our landings/TOs. What I
would do is fly over to the practice area for some other practice and then
return back to the airport when the other aircraft went home.

Sydney, where to you fligh out of primarily?

Happy flying,

Harry

My personal nightmare scenario is an airport with left
traffic for one runway, right traffic for another. The
wind is calm or almost directly across, or else one pilot
decides to land or takeoff downwind for personal reasons..

Yipers!
Sydney

Happens here (00V) a lot. Glider activity to the west so 15 has left
traffic and 33 right traffic. Not to mention all sorts of different
approaches, different or no radio callout and this airport is
potentially dangerous.

Ron Lee

Why did you choose the longer rwy when the wind favored the shorter one?
Unless you are doing xwind practice I think using the wind as a precedent is
most prudent. You have every right to use a runway of your choosing, but
the decision making ability has to be good as well.

You mention in another post about 10kts airspeed difference. What is the
reason for that and what plane is that?

What were the winds and what were the rwy headings and lengths?

"Snowbird" wrote in message
om...
What's the general viewpoint here?

A non-towered airport near us has two runways, shaped
like an "L". Totally flat, no obstructions to vision--
airplane at the departure end for one can see airplanes
at the other. Left traffic both, so the downwind for the
short runway crosses the longer runway at midfield.
The possible conflict points are simultaneous T/O,
or crosswind for the short runway/downwind for the
long.

Today at that airport, one aircraft was in the pattern for
the shorter runway, which the wind favored. I wanted to use
the longer runway for various reasons, so exercising a sharp
look-out and making my radio calls, I proceded to do so.
Later another plane joined him.

There were no conflicts AFAIK. Everyone was doing a good job
making transmissions and keeping track of each other.
It was a good exercise for me since our new home airport has
a similar setup with both runways frequently in use -- and the
added complication of right traffic in one direction, left in
the other. I'm still getting used to it.

When a fourth aircraft called in, I decided the spatial
relationships were getting complicated and taxied over to
the short run way, did one short field landing which my instructor
would have liked and I didn't (power on), and headed for the
horizon.

Question is: how would most pilots here feel about this?
Would you feel I should have just joined with traffic
for the shorter runway? In terms of my plane's capabilities
and mine, it's plenty of runway, no reason why not. It just
wasn't what I preferred initially.

I used to be based at that airport and it wasn't uncommon, if
I was in the pattern for the short runway, to have other planes
land on the long. It never bothered me except when someone
came straight-in and obviously had no idea where the rest of
the traffic was. But one of the planes in the pattern seemed
to indicate, um, let's say displeasure with me. That doesn't
concern me -- people have to say whatever they feel improves
safety and presents them in a professional light, *hee* *hee*,
and I kept my rule of "don't argue on freq. just don't and
say you didn't"

However I figure I should ask for a sanity-check on whether
what's SOP at home is regarded as inappropriate or rude
elsewhere.

Cheers,
Sydney

(Snowbird) wrote in message . com...
What's the general viewpoint here?

Today at that airport, one aircraft was in the pattern for
the shorter runway, which the wind favored. I wanted to use
the longer runway for various reasons, so exercising a sharp
look-out and making my radio calls, I proceded to do so.

Sydney, thanks for a nice thread.

At my home base it's routine for me to be on the turf runway, into the
wind, while everyone else uses the pavement with a 90-degree
crosswind.

You are PIC. It's not just your right but your responsibility to do
what you think is safest for you and your airplane. If somebody else
has a different idea about what's safe for you, listen to what they
might say, think about it, and then go back to Rule #1: You are PIC.

-Dave Russell
8KCAB

p.s. I posted a few months back about somebody who didn't think like I
do. He taxied right out in front of me while I was rolling for
take-off, oblivious to the fact that there actually was a runway
aligned with the wind. It was a very close thing. Even now I know I
was right to use the runway pointed into the wind, but that wouldn't
have saved us if I'd hit him. I don't know what this is supposed to
mean, but somehow it feels relevant. :-|

"Harry Gordon" wrote in message ...
Whenever I am flying at a non-controlled airport, my primary runway will
be
the one appropriate to the direction of the wind. If the wind changes, I
will change.

What if others are still using the "original" runway?

One of the "problems" with posting to newsgroups is if you leave something
out, it is automatically assumed the writer doesn't do it :-). Thus far,
when that situation has occurred, and the other aircraft haven't made the
adjustment, I will broadcast a CTAF message about the wind/runway change.

Perhaps I'm not clear enough on the scenario I'm thinking of.
I'm not thinking of you being the guy "established" in the pattern,
but rather of the following scenario:

You are approaching a non-towered airport. There are several
aircraft in the pattern for runway 18, happily making circuits.
You observe that the wind actually favors runway 27.

Are you saying you approach the airport with an announcement
"Podunk traffic, Cessna 1234, the wind appears to favor runway
27, so that should be the active runway now" or something to that
effect (what exactly would you say?) and so far, everyone just
changes to runway 27 and you join them?

Or are you saying you'd broadcast that you're landing on 27 because
that's the runway the wind favors, and everyone else would break off
their pattern and follow you?

Yes. That is exactly what I do when 34 is NOT the desired runway for the
given wind direction. I would rather use an extra 2 seconds of air time and
avoid a potiential problem.

OK, now I'm curious here again. How do you see broadcasting your
reasons for choosing the runway you are using as "avoiding a potential
problem"?

Needless to say my outside scanning becomes much more intense in
this situation; you never know when an airplane will be NORDO.

Just to point out that your outside scanning should be IMHO
as intense as you can make it at all times.

See, there you go trying to read between the lines :-)).

Um, Harry -- no offense intended here, but when you say "my
outside scanning becomes much more intense in this situation",
I don't think there's much reading between the lines going on
on my part. Perhaps you need to adjust what you write, to
better match what you mean?

My point is, I don't think it's a situation calling for a
beyond-normal level of alertness, because it's a situation
which could always be occuring without notice.

You too??? :-) At least I don't feel like the Lone Ranger now. I still have
a hard time deciding if I am approaching from the S.E., N.W., S.W., etc.

Me too. Actually I know what direction I'm approaching
from but my brain has been known to disengage before the words
emerge from my mouth "southeast--um, sorry, no, northwest--"
(and there I go, exhibiting the peeve my fingers warned us against)
It's a consistant trait of mine, I mis-speak in other walks of life.
I would make a horrible ATCS, or any other profession which had to
talk for a living!

Cheers,
Sydney

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message news:GyVMb.43941$5V2.61806@attbi_s53...
I guess I read more into your original post than was there...I had this
mental picture of a bunch of folks using one runway while you used another,
which is your right to do.

Well, that is what wound up happening, but it wasn't so clear-cut
as several planes established in the pattern when I arrived.

It was very clear that the wind favored the runway they were using.

I still see it as a learning situation for any
students in the pattern

That's definately true, and I probably wasn't clear enough
about my point so let me try to restate it in a better way.

As a student, I had instructors say similar things to me along the
lines of "this isn't what a pilot ought to do, it isn't smart, but
it will happen so you need to watch for it". And I was very nervous
when I was in the pattern and other aircraft arrived and used a
different runway.

As a private pilot, one of the instructors I worked with
drew the traffic patterns for the two runways and we worked
our way around them with what altitude a plane would likely
be at at each point, and identified where the conflict
points were. It quickly became clear that barring unusual
behavior like a chap turning at 200 AGL, there are only a
couple of conflict points and they can readily be avoided
with a bit of care. So after that it was a matter of "OK,
when this happens, this is what I watch for and this is how
I should time it" and it was much less stressful to me.

I'm still less comfortable with our new home airport because
both runways have right traffic in one direction and left in
the other, and there are more potential conflict points so
it's not as clear to me how to time it.

That's what I meant when I said perhaps it's doing the students
a disservice to tell them it's unexpected and not smart. I'm
know you're right that they need to focus on the basics of what
is a pattern and what they should be doing when, but I think
it's a common enough situation that they should just be prepared
to watch for it and meet it.

Best,
Sydney

My worst complaint is the pilot (not from the area) who insists on doing
a left pattern when the AF/D and the sectionals all explicitly state
right pattern. Why? Because FTG is cozy in the SE corner of DEN's
class B. A mile west or a mile north, and you're violating the
Class B surfact airspace.

And when the pilot is reminded about the right traffic, he (why is
it *always* a man?) responds "not in my book!"

We get one of these every month or so.

My pet peeve is the motormouth types who clog the CTAF with
personal chatter that has little or nothing to do with the
safety of flight. Some of these folks aren't even flying -
and seem to think the CTAF is a personal CB channel. The
temptation to become "voluntary NORDO" is quite strong at
the airport I have in mind.

Equally annoying is the Class C scenario in which you can't
get a word in edgewise due to the congestion on frequency.
Sometimes it is simply too many aircraft coming and going at once.
Other times there is the stuck mike or the pilot with a limited
command of English, or somebody who takes 100 words to say what
a the average person could say in ten.

David Johnson

Perhaps I'm not clear enough on the scenario I'm thinking of.
I'm not thinking of you being the guy "established" in the pattern,
but rather of the following scenario:

You are approaching a non-towered airport. There are several
aircraft in the pattern for runway 18, happily making circuits.
You observe that the wind actually favors runway 27.

Are you saying you approach the airport with an announcement
"Podunk traffic, Cessna 1234, the wind appears to favor runway
27, so that should be the active runway now" or something to that
effect (what exactly would you say?) and so far, everyone just
changes to runway 27 and you join them?

Or are you saying you'd broadcast that you're landing on 27 because
that's the runway the wind favors, and everyone else would break off
their pattern and follow you?


When I or others have announced a wind change, there has never been an issue
about switching to another runway. Communications are brief and contain the
relative information: "Podunk traffic, Cessna 1234, new wind direction 250,
perferred runway now 27, Podunk."

Thus far, no one has refused to adjust their pattern to the new runway. In
fact, I have seen pilots turn their planes around on the ground and taxi to
another runway because of a wind change that was announced by another pilot.


OK, now I'm curious here again. How do you see broadcasting your
reasons for choosing the runway you are using as "avoiding a potential
problem"?


Remember, you broadcast your position, intentions, etc., regardless of
whether or not there are other aircraft in the pattern. The reason I
broadcast my message is to eliminate the possible confusion (maybe I should
have used that word rather than "problem") over an airplane approaching the
field who has listened to AWOS, obtained the wind direction and determined
what runway they will be using. And then when they switch to CTAF have them
hear me using a different runway. It also gives them the ability to contact
me if they so desire. And be assured that I NEVER us a non-preferred runway
for x-wind practice when other aircraft are using the field (of course if
they are NORAD, then I can't respond to their approaching until I see them.)

Perhaps I need to say this since we don't know each other. I consider myself
a very "sky friendly" pilot. When I fly, I fly with other pilots in the sky.
I will not do anything that jeperdizes either their safety nor mine - at
least intentionally :-). I guess I am becoming confused over whether your
challenging what I do or if you're looking for rationale for making your
flying experiences better.


See, there you go trying to read between the lines :-)).

.... Perhaps you need to adjust what you write, to
better match what you mean?


Perhaps your right. Before I retired I spent over 35 years in jobs requiring
intensive writing skills, you would think that I could be a little clearer
wouldn't you? :-). I guess the problem with communicating in these
newsgroups is the fundmental principle of written/verbal communications -
know your audience and then taylor your communications to that audience.

No two people who post to this newsgroup have the same background. Everyone
is different. Some are very young and some are retired; some are fresh
students and others have tens-of-thousands of flying hours and hold every
rating in the book, not to mention those in between; some have great
communication skills, others..., well you get the idea. Added to that is the
frame-of-mind the writer/reader is in at the time the writting/reading takes
place. That frame-of-mind will determine the inflection given to words as
they are written/read (that is referred to as tone-of-font). What the reader
perceives as the "tone" may not in any way reflect that of the writer's.
Unfortunately, the definition of communications is not what is written or
said but what is perceived by the receiver to have been written or said.

I hope we're communicating. :-)

Harry

"Richard Hertz" wrote in message . net...
Why did you choose the longer rwy when the wind favored the shorter one?

Liked the color . Sorry to be sarcastic, but my question
had to do with how other pilots regard the use of 2 runways
at once, and I sense a theme here of wanting to microanalyze
my decision making process and the specific situation, which
isn't my personal interest.

Unless you are doing xwind practice

Good "unless"

I think using the wind as a precedent is most prudent.

See other posts giving reasons why other runways might be
more prudent (besides xwind landing practice).

You mention in another post about 10kts airspeed difference. What is the
reason for that and what plane is that?

Higher stall speed, dramatically higher sink rate approaching stall,
Grumman. It's SOP taught in the type-club pilot fam course. Cruise
speed is also 10-20 kts faster.

What were the winds and what were the rwy headings and lengths?

I have no idea -- nothing too kicky, 10-12 kts? They were fairly
variable. 36, ~3500 27, 2000. I can land on the 2000 ft runway
and make the half-way turnoff without touching the brakes.