How old is too old to fly?

R. Hubbell wrote in
news:20040305083821.7b5873a9@fstop:

With the recent talk about diving and flying and personal limitations
I wonder how older pilots feel about their own abilities to keep fresh
and when do you hang up the wings? Or do you just limit your flying
and take it easier as long as the medical is good?

And interesting thread is sure to follow your question. As I am sure
you suspect, there is probably no one-size-fits-all answer (much less a
concensus on what that might be).

There is no question that (percentage-wise) older pilots have slower
reaction times than youngsters. Cognitive skills also decrease with
age. OTOH, pilots with more hours tend to have more experience (and
hopefully better judgement). For some time these things probably offset
each other (or even show an improvement).

But eventually age has an affect. The arguement over Bob Hoover
(ignoring all the other political and personal issues) was not whether
he could perform his routine (clearly he could) but whether he could
handle the situation if something went wrong. [All based on an
*experimental* congnitive skills test he had voluntarily taken some time
before, just to help out.]

So should any pilot over the age of 30 consider "hanging it up"? No...
let's face it, I was NEVER at the level of Bob Hoover or Patty Wagstaff,
even in the BEST of my days. Yet I am able to fly safely and
comfortably.

Why? Well, because the flying I do doesn't REQUIRE that skill level.
And I would say therein lies part of the answer to extending ones flying
years. Perhaps simpler (and/or slower planes). Perhaps it means less
IFR in busy airspace. And it definitely means less long days with 12 -
14 hours in the cockpit.

But with an honest self-assesment (no easy task) the average pilot can
certainly fly for many years.

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

James M. Knox wrote:
There is no question that (percentage-wise) older pilots have slower
reaction times than youngsters. Cognitive skills also decrease with
age. OTOH, pilots with more hours tend to have more experience (and
hopefully better judgement). For some time these things probably offset
each other (or even show an improvement).

Reminds me of an old story...
Airliner flying along, greybeard in the left seat, wet behind the ears
FO in the right. A chime begins to sound, followed by a flashing light.
The anxious FO looks over at his Captain and observes him winding his watch.
Incredulous, the FO stammers, "Captain, we have a situation to deal
with. Why are you winding your watch?"
To which the wise man replied, "I never killed anyone winding my watch
before."

"R. Hubbell" wrote in message
news:20040305083821.7b5873a9@fstop...
With the recent talk about diving and flying and personal limitations
I wonder how older pilots feel about their own abilities to keep fresh
and when do you hang up the wings? Or do you just limit your flying
and take it easier as long as the medical is good?


I presume that this week's question on AVweb got you thinking about it.

It is far more difficult to stay active as a pilot than it is to continue to
drive as you get older. Pilots have to take get a flight review every two
years at a minimum. Those that are active commercial pilots get flight
checks every six months or every year, depending on the type of operation.
If you are flying any sort of expensive, high performance complex type you
insurance company is going to demand annual recurrent training. Many pilots
also regularly schedule flight instruction for currency, or they get regular
instrument training. You also have to get a medical exam every so often.
Although the medical exam itself does not cover much, you do have to review
all doctor visits with the medical examiner.

Your reflexes do deteriorate over time, but most older pilots compensate
with experience or by increasing their personal minimums. Your reflexes do
not have to be all that fast in an airplane anyway. Airplanes are not like
cars, where a split second may be all you have to avoid an accident.
Airplanes are more stable. Obstructions are fewer and can be seen from
further away. They are not confined to narrow lanes. You are not going to
step on think you are stepping on the brake in an airplane when you are
really stepping on the gas. I am not saying that you can afford to be
complacent, but I am saying that an experienced pilot has learned to stay
far enough ahead of the airplane that he is unlikely to face the same kind
of panic or confusion that an automobile driver can get.

Most pilots pretty well know when to quit. If you have to start lying to the
AME about your medical condition, for example, then it is time. Those that
don't know when to quit will continue to fly even if someone yanks their
certificates.

Even if a pilot does not feel qualified to act as PIC he may still keep
flying by taking an instructor or pilot friend along with him. I regularly
fly with people whose skills have deteriorated so much that they can no
longer fly alone. Sometimes they have terminal diseases, such as cancer, but
they want to fly just one more time.

I also sometimes fly with disabled people who know that they will never be
able to get a pilot certificate, but who want to see what it is like to fly
an airplane at least once in their lives. Some of them come back once in
awhile. Often people like this will bring along a family member who will
take pictures of the flight.

There are some people whose health would be put at serious risk by flight.
Others have personality disorders such as depression or who have medications
or medical equipment that would endanger the flight. Such people cannot fly
even with an instructor. There are others who are so physically handicapped
that they would have no hope of controlling an airplane even with an
instructor on board.

Even so, many people can continue flying in some form without undue danger
to themselves or others into extreme old age. Maybe they eventually need a
little help, but if they want to continue to fly, why not?

Every airport has derelict airplanes sitting on the ramp. These often belong
to people who have quit flying, but who have not yet come to terms with that
fact. I visited a very old pilot in a nursing home. He has had several
strokes and has been essentially confined to bed for two or three years. He
could still sit up and even take a few steps once in awhile, but he was
never going to fly again. But if you ask him about his old plane he
brightens up and tells you how he is going to fix it up and go flying. He
will show you his pilot certificate and talk about getting an appointment
for a BFR.

His plane sits on the ramp, the tires flat, birds nesting in the cowling. It
hasn't been started in many years. He knows that. He also knows that selling
the plane means admitting that he is never going to get better, that he is
never going to leave that little room alive. How can he face that? So he
keeps a picture of himself and his airplane and his wife (long gone) by his
bed, and knows that whatever else happens to him he still is a pilot and he
owns an airplane and someday he will get to fly it again. I would be the
last to tell him otherwise.

C J Campbell wrote:

If you have to start lying to the
AME about your medical condition, for example, then it is time.

Or if you keep postponing seeing a doctor about some problem you have because
you're afraid the diagnosis will disqualify you.

"Honest, honey, it's just a little gas."

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

Geez, that's quite a tear-jerker.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"R. Hubbell" wrote in message
news:20040305083821.7b5873a9@fstop...
With the recent talk about diving and flying and personal limitations
I wonder how older pilots feel about their own abilities to keep fresh
and when do you hang up the wings? Or do you just limit your flying
and take it easier as long as the medical is good?


I presume that this week's question on AVweb got you thinking about it.

It is far more difficult to stay active as a pilot than it is to continue
to
drive as you get older. Pilots have to take get a flight review every two
years at a minimum. Those that are active commercial pilots get flight
checks every six months or every year, depending on the type of operation.
If you are flying any sort of expensive, high performance complex type you
insurance company is going to demand annual recurrent training. Many
pilots
also regularly schedule flight instruction for currency, or they get
regular
instrument training. You also have to get a medical exam every so often.
Although the medical exam itself does not cover much, you do have to
review
all doctor visits with the medical examiner.

Your reflexes do deteriorate over time, but most older pilots compensate
with experience or by increasing their personal minimums. Your reflexes do
not have to be all that fast in an airplane anyway. Airplanes are not like
cars, where a split second may be all you have to avoid an accident.
Airplanes are more stable. Obstructions are fewer and can be seen from
further away. They are not confined to narrow lanes. You are not going to
step on think you are stepping on the brake in an airplane when you are
really stepping on the gas. I am not saying that you can afford to be
complacent, but I am saying that an experienced pilot has learned to stay
far enough ahead of the airplane that he is unlikely to face the same kind
of panic or confusion that an automobile driver can get.

Most pilots pretty well know when to quit. If you have to start lying to
the
AME about your medical condition, for example, then it is time. Those that
don't know when to quit will continue to fly even if someone yanks their
certificates.

Even if a pilot does not feel qualified to act as PIC he may still keep
flying by taking an instructor or pilot friend along with him. I regularly
fly with people whose skills have deteriorated so much that they can no
longer fly alone. Sometimes they have terminal diseases, such as cancer,
but
they want to fly just one more time.

I also sometimes fly with disabled people who know that they will never be
able to get a pilot certificate, but who want to see what it is like to
fly
an airplane at least once in their lives. Some of them come back once in
awhile. Often people like this will bring along a family member who will
take pictures of the flight.

There are some people whose health would be put at serious risk by flight.
Others have personality disorders such as depression or who have
medications
or medical equipment that would endanger the flight. Such people cannot
fly
even with an instructor. There are others who are so physically
handicapped
that they would have no hope of controlling an airplane even with an
instructor on board.

Even so, many people can continue flying in some form without undue danger
to themselves or others into extreme old age. Maybe they eventually need a
little help, but if they want to continue to fly, why not?

Every airport has derelict airplanes sitting on the ramp. These often
belong
to people who have quit flying, but who have not yet come to terms with
that
fact. I visited a very old pilot in a nursing home. He has had several
strokes and has been essentially confined to bed for two or three years.
He
could still sit up and even take a few steps once in awhile, but he was
never going to fly again. But if you ask him about his old plane he
brightens up and tells you how he is going to fix it up and go flying. He
will show you his pilot certificate and talk about getting an appointment
for a BFR.

His plane sits on the ramp, the tires flat, birds nesting in the cowling.
It
hasn't been started in many years. He knows that. He also knows that
selling
the plane means admitting that he is never going to get better, that he is
never going to leave that little room alive. How can he face that? So he
keeps a picture of himself and his airplane and his wife (long gone) by
his
bed, and knows that whatever else happens to him he still is a pilot and
he
owns an airplane and someday he will get to fly it again. I would be the
last to tell him otherwise.

"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1078539061.302433@sj-nntpcache-3...
Geez, that's quite a tear-jerker.


I am sure there is a great Country/Western song in there somewhere.

Or Blues maybe? How about a r.a.p Blues Lyrics
competition...

Run up this mornin
Left mag gone bad
Yeah run up this mornin
That bad old mag he go bad

Take off dis mornin
My AI don't show no sky
Yeah take off dis mornin
That old AI ain't showin no sky

Spin in dis mornin

....OK, OK, I'll stick to the day job.

John

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1078539061.302433@sj-nntpcache-3...
Geez, that's quite a tear-jerker.


I am sure there is a great Country/Western song in there somewhere.

C J Campbell wrote:

I am sure there is a great Country/Western song in there somewhere.

Naw. You didn't have one word in there about mother, or rain, or pickup trucks,
or getting drunk, or prison, or railroad trains. :-)

"Oh I was drunk the day my Ma got out of prison ......"

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...
"R. Hubbell" wrote in message
snip

snip
Even if a pilot does not feel qualified to act as PIC he may still keep
flying by taking an instructor or pilot friend along with him. I regularly
fly with people whose skills have deteriorated so much that they can no
longer fly alone. Sometimes they have terminal diseases, such as cancer, but
they want to fly just one more time.

I also sometimes fly with disabled people who know that they will never be
able to get a pilot certificate, but who want to see what it is like to fly
an airplane at least once in their lives. Some of them come back once in
awhile. Often people like this will bring along a family member who will
take pictures of the flight.

I'm in my late fifties, and have never taken formal flight
instruction. I have flown three airplanes, and would like to become a
pilot. I have noticed in the last 5 years or so that it takes me a
LONG time to work through a problem that arises unexpectedly. That
discovery is one reason I chose not to seek a PPL. Lately, however, I
have considered taking lessons without the expectation that I could
ever be safe flying solo. The money I would spend on lessons would be
purely for the fun of being in the air at the controls for however
many hours I could afford to pay an instructor to babysit me.
Pokey

Well, you won't be any better if you wait another five years, now will
you... What do you expect from us? If you want to take flying lessons,
just do it...

"Pokey" wrote in message Lately, however, I
have considered taking lessons without the expectation that I could
ever be safe flying solo.