When are thermals not circular and do thermal helpers assume thatthey are?

You guys who find the WP thermal assistant so much better than others - are you running them on the same hardware with the same inputs? I hope you are not basing any comments on an Oudie using its internal GPS because it is known that the info from the internal GPS is not good enough for a thermal assistant.

On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 12:51:44 AM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
You guys who find the WP thermal assistant so much better than others - are you running them on the same hardware with the same inputs? I hope you are not basing any comments on an Oudie using its internal GPS because it is known that the info from the internal GPS is not good enough for a thermal assistant.

You are absolutely correct. WP Pro is only available and only work with a compatible flight computer( true airspeed and vario info added I think) and not with a stand alone gps source.
SYM, XCSoar will offer their version of the thermal assist with a stand alone gps where they should not; AS IT DOES NOT WORK without a flight computer!
But to be honest when it comes to their type of thermal assist SYM and XCSoar don't work very well with a flight computer either.
I'm sure this is all about the algorithms which they won't openly share (as in guarded secrets).
Like Tim I have used all three (and still have them installed on my Avier/Vertica2)
None measure up to WPPro when it comes to this feature. Agree; they have a lot of new and nice features I wish WP would take notes of.
(One would argue; why we need the thermal assits? Answer; why do we need flight computers, compensated varios, audio varios, or a variometer for that matter??.)
6PK

I'll jump in here before Max does. XCSoar is open source. You can download
all of the source code and study the algorithms yourself.

I also have to ask: Do you really *need* a thermal assistant? I can fly
with the pitot tube plugged (ask me how I know), can you? Same with plugged
statics.


"6PK" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 12:51:44 AM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
You guys who find the WP thermal assistant so much better than others -
are you running them on the same hardware with the same inputs? I hope you
are not basing any comments on an Oudie using its internal GPS because it
is known that the info from the internal GPS is not good enough for a
thermal assistant.

You are absolutely correct. WP Pro is only available and only work with a
compatible flight computer( true airspeed and vario info added I think) and
not with a stand alone gps source.
SYM, XCSoar will offer their version of the thermal assist with a stand
alone gps where they should not; AS IT DOES NOT WORK without a flight
computer!
But to be honest when it comes to their type of thermal assist SYM and
XCSoar don't work very well with a flight computer either.
I'm sure this is all about the algorithms which they won't openly share (as
in guarded secrets).
Like Tim I have used all three (and still have them installed on my
Avier/Vertica2)
None measure up to WPPro when it comes to this feature. Agree; they have a
lot of new and nice features I wish WP would take notes of.
(One would argue; why we need the thermal assits? Answer; why do we need
flight computers, compensated varios, audio varios, or a variometer for that
matter??.)
6PK

On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 12:51:44 AM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
You guys who find the WP thermal assistant so much better than others - are you running them on the same hardware with the same inputs? I hope you are not basing any comments on an Oudie using its internal GPS because it is known that the info from the internal GPS is not good enough for a thermal assistant.

I have SYM, XCSoar, Winpilot Pro and Adv, LK8000 all loaded on the Avier, all accepting the same input from the Butterfly including GPS and barometric data. I also have Winpilot iOS and iGlide Pro on the iPhone. Very shortly I will have these connected to the Butterfly for GPS and barometric data as well. I have tried them all, often switching between them on the same flight in the same conditions. (I don't need to look out of the cockpit - I have Flarm and an AH ). SYM and XCSoar (and its derivatives) have more features than Winpilot - but for the most part I don't find those features particularly useful. The Winpilot Pro thermal assistant simply works better than the others. I would not bother to use the others, frankly. I think the reason thermal assistants have gotten a bad reputation is from those not using the Winpilot version. The others don't appear when you want them, aren't useful once they appear, and don't dismiss themselves in a timely fashion when you are done.

Even Naviter doesn't believe in their version. Directly quoted from the manual: "We will be happy if you continue to enjoy soaring and if you never find the need to use the Thermal Assistant at all :-)". I agree with them, for their version.

The other main difference between Winpilot and the other PDA software is that the Winpilot authors have had some experience in man-machine interaction.. The UI is more concise and considers the cockpit environment.

Now regarding head down time with all this junk in the cockpit. They are distractions, but the extent of the distraction depends to a great extent on the presentation and user interface. The Winpilot thermal assistant requires about a half second glance a couple of times each circle while you are attempting to center. There is no reason to study it. There is no interaction required to call it up or dismiss it. In contrast, try to insert a waypoint in SYM or XCSoar while you are thermaling (or even cruising). Now there is some head down time. The Avier/V2/Oudie do not make this any easier with its poor touchscreen.

The iOS offerings seem to have made a leap in UI. Both Winpilot iOS and iGlide have significantly better user interfaces than any of the PDA offerings.. You can simply do a lot more with a lot less attention. However both products are not really feature complete yet - for example neither has a thermal assistant - but they are getting pretty close.

I did not realise that the Butterfly was competible with WinPilot Pro?
One of the short comings of WP is the lack of compability with most newer flight computers.
6PK

Some really good points here about thermal assistants, thanks.

Even Naviter doesn't believe in their version

Good point and largely true. For this reason the visual aspects of the Thermal assistant have been completely redesigned for the version which has been released earlier today (SeeYou Mobile 4.50). More about it (and other news) he
http://www.naviter.com/2013/08/new-v...and-new-logos/

There's also a discussion on a same/similar topic he
http://forum.naviter.com/threads/494...-with-my-Moves

I dare to say that accurate thermal assistants are a myth and that head down time during circling is a waste unless you are consciously learning a particular technique. At the same time - I do keep the "ding ding" thermal assistant active most of the time. Mainly because at times I become useless when I am talking on the radio, looking at my landing options or become plain old tired. That's when the thermal assistant's "ding ding" is usually right and very useful.

Regards,
Andrej Kolar
--
glider pilots use
http://www.Naviter.com

On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 6:38:56 PM UTC+2, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 12:51:44 AM UTC-7, waremark wrote:

You guys who find the WP thermal assistant so much better than others - are you running them on the same hardware with the same inputs? I hope you are not basing any comments on an Oudie using its internal GPS because it is known that the info from the internal GPS is not good enough for a thermal assistant.



I have SYM, XCSoar, Winpilot Pro and Adv, LK8000 all loaded on the Avier, all accepting the same input from the Butterfly including GPS and barometric data. I also have Winpilot iOS and iGlide Pro on the iPhone. Very shortly I will have these connected to the Butterfly for GPS and barometric data as well. I have tried them all, often switching between them on the same flight in the same conditions. (I don't need to look out of the cockpit - I have Flarm and an AH ). SYM and XCSoar (and its derivatives) have more features than Winpilot - but for the most part I don't find those features particularly useful. The Winpilot Pro thermal assistant simply works better than the others. I would not bother to use the others, frankly. I think the reason thermal assistants have gotten a bad reputation is from those not using the Winpilot version. The others don't appear when you want them, aren't useful once they appear, and don't dismiss themselves in a timely fashion when you are done.



Even Naviter doesn't believe in their version. Directly quoted from the manual: "We will be happy if you continue to enjoy soaring and if you never find the need to use the Thermal Assistant at all :-)". I agree with them, for their version.



The other main difference between Winpilot and the other PDA software is that the Winpilot authors have had some experience in man-machine interaction. The UI is more concise and considers the cockpit environment.



Now regarding head down time with all this junk in the cockpit. They are distractions, but the extent of the distraction depends to a great extent on the presentation and user interface. The Winpilot thermal assistant requires about a half second glance a couple of times each circle while you are attempting to center. There is no reason to study it. There is no interaction required to call it up or dismiss it. In contrast, try to insert a waypoint in SYM or XCSoar while you are thermaling (or even cruising). Now there is some head down time. The Avier/V2/Oudie do not make this any easier with its poor touchscreen.



The iOS offerings seem to have made a leap in UI. Both Winpilot iOS and iGlide have significantly better user interfaces than any of the PDA offerings. You can simply do a lot more with a lot less attention. However both products are not really feature complete yet - for example neither has a thermal assistant - but they are getting pretty close.

On Monday, July 29, 2013 11:00:11 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
I'm starting to think that the textbook circular thermal is primarily a flatland phenomena.

SYM user hint.

In thermal display,tap the screen once to exit it.

On Monday, July 29, 2013 12:00:11 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
I'm starting to think that the textbook circular thermal is primarily a flatland phenomena.

(Am I crazy or)does a stream of wind coming through a mountain pass often interact with a series of ground generated thermals to produce a long line of lift (bordered by a parallel line of sink.) Circling just divides my time between the line of lift and the line of sink. What about flying a rectangle so that the downwind leg is not in sink? Tight turns to reverse direction at either end of the line of lift? Other strategies?

One of the pundits in our club has a simple saying. It's "God's Air", so lift is where you find it. Bubbles, pulses, streams, multiple cores, lines... you name it. Like TT mentioned above, there are some days when you find yourself screaming out loud in the cockpit wondering where the *#$%! 10kt core just went or the dreaded 6kts up and 7kts down "thermal". The circle is as good a model as any to start, but the re-centering strategy and the need constantly be executing that strategy is the real key.

FWIW, my LS4 was a glider that let you get away with "dynamically thermalling." You could haul back on the stick, slam the rudder, and sort of pirouette into a core without degrading climb performance. My LS8 is a little less forgiving of large airspeed/pitch excursions; my friends tell me the ASW-24 is even less forgiving. A lot depends upon what your particular glider can/can't do. I make it a habit to fly one of the club's 1-26s a couple of times each year, just to remember how much fun it can be to flail around in broken lift with a low wingloading glider. I think the "model" you use has to take into account flying styles and the glider as well.

P3

On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 9:34:16 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2013 12:00:11 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:

I'm starting to think that the textbook circular thermal is primarily a flatland phenomena.

(Am I crazy or)does a stream of wind coming through a mountain pass often interact with a series of ground generated thermals to produce a long line of lift (bordered by a parallel line of sink.) Circling just divides my time between the line of lift and the line of sink. What about flying a rectangle so that the downwind leg is not in sink? Tight turns to reverse direction at either end of the line of lift?

On 07/30/2013 9:34 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
Other strategies?

There is only one right answer; fly in the lift, avoid the sink. Do
whatever is necessary to keep it that way BUT avoid loss due to
unnecessary control movements /attitude changes. Avoiding erratic
changes also minimizes risk of a mid-air if you are flying with other
aircraft in the same thermal.

Luke