what would you do?

"lardsoup" wrote in message news:Iw1Cc.116832$Gx4.22254@bgtnsc

So long as she landed on 14 she flew a left upwind to 14. Doesn't matter
what radio call she used. If she called a left downwind for 32 we all
should know where she is. The original poster was flying the wrong
pattern
if he was right upwind for 14 when 14 is a left pattern.

I'd report her anyway. If she didn't do anything wrong, the FAA wouldn't
put anything on her (assuming for the sake of discussion a fair FAA.) But
the flak they give her might give her incentive to pay more attention to her
flying, which is in everybody's best interest.

-c

What would you report? That she made a mistake on her radio calls and
another pilot flying a non-standard pattern got freaked out?

"gatt" wrote in message
...

"lardsoup" wrote in message
news:Iw1Cc.116832$Gx4.22254@bgtnsc

So long as she landed on 14 she flew a left upwind to 14. Doesn't
matter
what radio call she used. If she called a left downwind for 32 we all
should know where she is. The original poster was flying the wrong
pattern
if he was right upwind for 14 when 14 is a left pattern.

I'd report her anyway. If she didn't do anything wrong, the FAA wouldn't
put anything on her (assuming for the sake of discussion a fair FAA.)
But
the flak they give her might give her incentive to pay more attention to
her
flying, which is in everybody's best interest.

-c

"gatt" wrote
I'd report her anyway. If she didn't do anything wrong, the FAA wouldn't
put anything on her (assuming for the sake of discussion a fair FAA.)

Check this out before you spread any more fairy tales like the one
about the fair FAA:

http://www.avweb.com/pdf/brinell_report.pdf

Remember - with the FAA, there is no due process and no
accountability. Reporting someone to the FAA is NOT like reporting
someone to the police. It's much more like exercising vigilante
justice yourself.

Michael

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
First of all, what would you report her for? I am having difficulty
finding
an actual FAR violation here, though it appears that everyone, including
yourself, was flying some sort of non-standard pattern. Being rude is not
a
crime (otherwise most of us here would have been locked up long ago).

"Rude" is all it was?

Secondly, if your radio conversation was broadcast over the loudspeakers
for
1000 people to hear, the FAA already heard it.

Oh?

ASRS Report



Troy


"tony roberts" wrote in message
news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews...
I have to make a decision that could have a big impact on a fellow pilot
and I would appreciate knowing what you would do in my situation - Here
are the basic facts:
Today I, along with a pilot passenger (witness) went to a fly-in - lots
of planes arriving in short time frame.
Active runway was 14, lh downwind, circuit height 3000 ft.
We called 5 miles out (procedure) and received a response from another
pilot "Joining 17 in 2 minutes".
I responded, "are you arriving xxx airport - there is no 17"
Response - "sorry I meant 35".
I reply, there is no 35 - the runways are 14 and 32. 14 is active,
downwind is lh, circuit is 3000 ft.
Response - circling over 35 losing altitude.
Me - I am approaching threshold of 32 at 3000ft to join downwind left
14. There is no 35 and you should not be descending over the runway.
Response - I am at 5500 descending for 35.
Me - I repeat this airport is 14 and 32 - circuit height is 3000 ft. We
are about to cross midfield to join downwind left 14.
Response - Sorry I meant 32 - I am on downwind left 32.
(32 if it was active - is downwind right)
Me - You are on head on collision course with me- I am in immediate
emergency descent and crossing to midfield (no choice - mountains in
other direction)
Response - Well - I'm trying to land here! Huh?
Me - XXX Radio - are you guys listening to this? I could really use your
help here right now (I admit - I got VERY rattled)
XXX Radio - Errr aircraft xxx active is downwind left 14.
So I land.
And then this plane comes in and bounces nose wheel to mains - 4 or 5
times.
So I'm out of the plane and I meet a friend who arrived before me. And
that was when I found out that our radio calls had been broadcast via
loudspeakers to over 1000 spectators.
And my friend said, "I am really embarrassed about this, because I have
been trying to help this pilot (who has a PPL and over 100 hours) but
she is totally clueless.
So the pilot now taxis next to my friends aircraft , taxis into the
grass/soft dirt - gets stuck trying to turn, applys FULL power and
sprays the side of my friends aircraft with dirt & stones - and keeps
doing it - because she is so clueless she doesn't know what she is doing.
Moving forward - I watched her depart.
Radio at taxiway - Aircraft calling on final - which airport are you
landing at - I kid you not.
Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
He lands.
Another aircraft calls final 14 xxx
Response - Aircraft on final - which airport are you landing at?
Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
And yet another aircraft calls final.
"Listen - I'm waiting to take off here"
He lands.
She has about 8 aircraft behind her.
Now she does her runup.
Her call - XXX taking off. (No runway - just taking off).
Of the approx 500 aircraft that took off here today, this was the ONLY
one that didn't backtrack.
With nosewheel up way to soon for density altitude she took off, stall
horn wailing as she skimmed the trees and departed for home.
Would you report her - or would you forget it?
I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her,
I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week.
What would you do?
Thanks
Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument
Cessna 172H C-GICE

Shes a Witch!
Burn Her!!!

tony roberts wrote in message news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews...

Active runway was 14, lh downwind, circuit height 3000 ft.
We called 5 miles out (procedure) and received a response from another
...
Me - I am approaching threshold of 32 at 3000ft to join downwind left
14. There is no 35 and you should not be descending over the runway.
Response - I am at 5500 descending for 35.

Tony, I can tell your intentions are good, but just FYI

If the goal is improved safety, telling anyone "you should not be
doing X" over the frequency can be counter-productive. It can result
in a response about what you shouldn't be doing, in the opinion of
other pilots (you shouldn't be joining the pattern at the threshold,
you should be joining downwind midfield on a 45 degree angle, sort
of thing). If you allow yourself to get drawn in to responding (no
matter how *right* or correct or justified you are), the result is a
clogged frequency and decreased situational awareness.

I like the advice I received from an 8,000 hr pilot when I went to
pick up my plane. If you're not happy with what's going on in the
pattern or there is confusion, Get Outta There. Come back in 10
minutes.

And my friend said, "I am really embarrassed about this, because I have
been trying to help this pilot (who has a PPL and over 100 hours) but
she is totally clueless.

Is your friend a CFI? Is he based at the same field?

One suggestion for the US, which may have an analogous program in
Canada, is the Aviation Safety Counselor program. If Garner Miller
is lurking here perhaps he'll comment, he was one. Usually they are
CFIs designated by the FAA as ASCs. If someone is involved with the
FAA over a violation, one possible outcome is to send them to an ASC
for remedial training.

The point is, you don't need to involve the FAA, you can contact an
ASC (or your friend can) and ask them to offer to work with this
pilot.
(translate to Canadian analogues)

With nosewheel up way to soon for density altitude she took off, stall
horn wailing as she skimmed the trees and departed for home.

How do you know the stall horn was wailing?

Did either of you politely point out that she'd given your friend's
airplane a mud bath?

Would you report her - or would you forget it?

I'm unclear on exactly what you want to report her for? Not being
from Canada, I don't want to make assumptions about what is or
isn't a violation there?

Best,
Sydney

(Snowbird) wrote
One suggestion for the US, which may have an analogous program in
Canada, is the Aviation Safety Counselor program.

While there are ASC's who are good people and good pilots (and in fact
I know a couple) in my experience they are the exception, not the
rule. The majority of the ones I know are really scary, and about a
quarter of them have wrecked airplanes, usually more than one. I
would not consider an ASC a solution.

Michael

Thanks for all of your responses - I appreciate them.
For those that thought that I was wrong in the pattern that I flew, I
should mention that for the sake of brevity I didn't post every detail.
My pattern was correct. As I mentioned in my previous post we had a
tower for this event, and due to a gyrocopter aerial display that
coincided with my (and several others) arrival I was asked to enter from
a different angle than the usual (in Canada) 90 degrees to midfield (yes
I am aware that it is 45 degrees in the US, but this is Canada). So I
was asked to join an upwind, prior to turning to cross midfield to join
downwind. But none of that is the point of my question, which has now
been resolved.

Earlier this week I attended the funeral of Vern Hupp. Vern was a friend
of mine, and he was killed last week when his 1944 Harvard (Texan 6A in
the US) Crashed and burned shortly after takeoff from Oroville
Washington.
This was my third funeral this year, and it had a far bigger impact on
me than I expected it to have. The lady that I wrote about also moved in
this circle, so after the funeral I asked about how to contact her and
then I went to see her.
And here is what I told her -
I told her that I had just come from my friends funeral, and that he
died in a plane crash (she knew about the crash)
And I told her that in my own opinion, she had endangered several
people, including me, the previous week,
And I told her that I honestly considered her to be an accident waiting
to happen,
And I told her that I was here to talk to her about that, because I
would not stand by and watch her kill herself, and possibly several
others.

And she was relieved. Isn't that great?
She thanked me,
She acknowledged that she shared the same concerns that I did,
And she agreed that her next ride would be a checkride with a CFI.

and I discovered a couple of other things.
She was 75 years old - I didn't know that.
She was a lowtime pilot, who obtained her licence 2 years ago, then
didn't fly for 2 years, then bought a plane.
She had only owned the plane for 3 weeks - she was a frightened new
pilot.

I liked her, and we formed a good relationship, and she was relieved
when I- right then - booked her a 2 hour check flight. And she readily
agreed that she would follow whatever advice resulted from the
checkflight.

So - To those who told me I was intefereing and to stay out of it - I'm
sorry but you were dead wrong - she was desperately looking for someone
to save her from herself and that is what I did.

for those who told me to report her, I believe that you were absolutely
right, although in thee final analysis I didn't - through tragic
circumstances I found another way to reach the same goal.

Either way, I thank all 49 of you for your comments - I respect them
all, even though I don't agree with them all.

Thanks

Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument
Cessna 172H C-GICE

On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 06:53:30 GMT, tony roberts
wrote:

I liked her, and we formed a good relationship, and she was relieved
when I- right then - booked her a 2 hour check flight. And she readily
agreed that she would follow whatever advice resulted from the
checkflight.

So - To those who told me I was intefereing and to stay out of it - I'm
sorry but you were dead wrong - she was desperately looking for someone
to save her from herself and that is what I did.

Wow, good for you. Thanks for following through.

Corky Scott