Verifying flap retraction

I've never flown a Piper with electric trim, but I find the manual trim
wheel between the seats very convenient. You don't have to lean forward to
work it like the manual trim in a Skyhawk (the only Cessna I've flown), and
it falls easily to hand without looking. The only problem I've had was when
I weighed 60 lb more and I had a similar-sized passenger in the right seat.
Then I found that it was a bit of a squeeze (that might have been
misunderstood) getting to it between our hips :-).

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love
America

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Paul Sengupta" wrote:

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
Now I fly mostly Pipers. I really like the manual flaps instead of
Cessna's electric ones, and curse the electric trim Piper uses instead
of Cessna's manual trim system.

Is there not a manual trim wheel then?

Paul

There is, but it's not in a very convenient place (stuffed between the
front seats). The Piper electric trim is very convenient when it works,
the problem is that it so often doesn't work :-(

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:42:17 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:

In article ,
"Paul Sengupta" wrote:

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
Now I fly mostly Pipers. I really like the manual flaps instead of
Cessna's electric ones, and curse the electric trim Piper uses instead
of Cessna's manual trim system.

Is there not a manual trim wheel then?

Paul

There is, but it's not in a very convenient place (stuffed between the
front seats). The Piper electric trim is very convenient when it works,
the problem is that it so often doesn't work :-(

I was a partner in a Cherokee 180 (N6360J). It had electric trim which
never failed in the 375 hours I put on it. I've never heard of the
current partners complain. The trim wheel is between the seats in a
natural position to just put your hand on it. For all 5 of us and the
partners since, it has worked just fine. I think they've worn out two
engines in that plane, but the trim has not been a problem.

BTW I'd love to have an electric trim in the Deb that worked like the
one in old sixty Juliet.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:00:08 +0100, "Paul Sengupta"
wrote:

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
Now I fly mostly Pipers. I really like the manual flaps instead of
Cessna's electric ones, and curse the electric trim Piper uses instead

That electric trim is one of the greatest things since sliced bread.

of Cessna's manual trim system.

Is there not a manual trim wheel then?

Yup

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Paul

In article ,
"C J Campbell" wrote:

Most of the problems that I have had on Cessna 172s have been with
flaps. I
agree that pilots should verify flaps up on touch and goes.

Cessna used to have manual flaps. Why did they ever go to this flakey
electrical system in the first place?

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

I did my initial training in Cessnas, and "verify flaps retracting" was
drummed into me as part of the touch-and-go procedure.

Now I fly mostly Pipers. I really like the manual flaps instead of
Cessna's electric ones, and curse the electric trim Piper uses instead
of Cessna's manual trim system.

Simple stuff just works better.

How exactly do Piper manual flap systems work then? We have a Piper Twin
Comanche with an electric flap system. The flaps are pushed down, but come
back up using springs, in effect after latches are removed. We've now had
two asymmetric flap retractions, where one of the springs failed to do its
job. This is Not Good.

So when you lower the flap handle in a manual Piper system, does it drag the
flaps up or does it merely take the latch away and allow the spring to do
its job, as in the electrical equivalent?

Julian Scarfe

In article , "Julian Scarfe"
wrote:

How exactly do Piper manual flap systems work then?

extend flaps against the spring. retract flaps an exercise
in making they don't snap back (push the button and let the
bar down slowly).

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

How exactly do Piper manual flap systems work then? We have a Piper Twin
Comanche with an electric flap system. The flaps are pushed down, but come
back up using springs, in effect after latches are removed. We've now had
two asymmetric flap retractions, where one of the springs failed to do its
job. This is Not Good.

Was this on the ground after landing, or in flight? I'd think that the air
load on extended flaps would help push them up in flight.

Barry opined

How exactly do Piper manual flap systems work then? We have a Piper Twin
Comanche with an electric flap system. The flaps are pushed down, but come
back up using springs, in effect after latches are removed. We've now had
two asymmetric flap retractions, where one of the springs failed to do its
job. This is Not Good.

Was this on the ground after landing, or in flight? I'd think that the air
load on extended flaps would help push them up in flight.

It won't. I had one flap not retract once. It just got hung up half way for some
reason. So I just lowered the flaps until they were symmetric and landed.

It helped that it was a test flight and I was in the pattern at the time.



-ash
Cthulhu for President!
Why vote for a lesser evil?

We've now had
two asymmetric flap retractions, where one of the springs failed to do
its
job. This is Not Good.

"Barry" wrote in message ...

Was this on the ground after landing, or in flight? I'd think that the
air
load on extended flaps would help push them up in flight.

It was in flight. I'm not sure what the magnitudes of the airloads are.

Julian

"Julian Scarfe" wrote in message
...
So when you lower the flap handle in a manual Piper system, does it drag
the
flaps up or does it merely take the latch away and allow the spring to do
its job, as in the electrical equivalent?

Hardly a definitive answer but I seem to remember pre-flighting
something (may have been a PA28) where the flaps stuck down
when I put the lever back down. A quick nudge freed them.

Paul

What about the little metal bar that moves up and down on the left side of
the flaps switch? When the flaps fail to retract, does the metal bar still
go all the way back up? Also, normally you can hear the motor running every
time the flaps are moving up or down. When the flaps get stuck, is there
any audible indication?

Thanks,
- Ray

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing out
of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had frozen
at
20 degrees on our 172.

I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps go
down but then fail to retract.

This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in
the
glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and go
arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
settings
is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety as
doing stalls.

--

Roger Long