First NASA form filed

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:29:09 -0700, "David Brooks"
wrote:

However, now the thread has brought up the emphasis on "enroute to the
departure runway"... does that mean a taxi instruction from the same
runway
intersection back to the same parking does *not* imply a clearance to
cross
intervening runways? That hadn't occurred to me before, and seems to
compound the confusion.

According to the AIM, it *DOES* imply a clearance to cross all intervening
runways:

"In the absence of holding instructions, a clearance to "taxi to" any
point other than an assigned takeoff runway is a clearance to cross ALL
runways that intersect the taxi route to that point." (emphasis mine).

Ah, yes. Should have read on to paragraph 6. Back to your regular scheduled
misunderstandings.

Speaking of which, I have been checking the accessible database at
https://www.nasdac.faa.gov/servlet/p..._schema=NASDAC
and there hasn't been any new reports in there for months.

When ever I cross a runway I always stop a look both ways then self announce
that I am crossing the runway (just like at an uncontrolled airport) just in
case the controller made a mistake or forgot about me. Usually I get an
"OK' reply.

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
news
And I sincerely hope it will be the last.

I landed at LSE (LaCrosse) on the way home from the twin cities last
week. I landed on 18 and asked for a progressive taxi to the FBO,
having never been there before. Controller told me to turn left on
taxiway bravo down to the construction cones at the end.

As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS
had called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was
over the hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line.
I think it's important to note that the controller had not told me to
hold short of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a
pretty flagrant violation.

After a split second of uncertainty I told tower I was holding at 21.
She immediately told me to continue past in the chipper tone she had
been using all along. Note that nobody had landed on or departed 21
during the entire time of my taxi so there was no loss of separation.

I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even
though no explicit instruction had been given, though I'm not 100% sure
of that (but in the future I'll be damn sure to in similar
circumstances!). And, unless the controller deliberately wanted to make
me believe nothing was wrong for some reason, I believe she either
didn't notice I was over the hold (this intersection is pretty close to
the tower) or didn't care. Her voice indicated nothing out of the
ordinary, as I said. I know they don't 'have to' ask you to call the
tower or let you know they're making a report, though.

Though the logical side of my brain tells me that the chances of some
enforcement action here would be slim, of course I filed the form
regardless. I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that
matter (the chance of some investigation).

Paul Folbrecht wrote:

I'd suggest that your condescending comment wasn't exactly warranted.

I'm sorry if it sounded that way, but I wasn't being condescending.

Airport operations and following taxi instructions are basic knowledge
required to fly safely. You might think it's safe to hold short of a
runway "just in case," but you could have caused a taxiway incursion
by stopping suddenly.

There's nothing wrong with remedial training. If you don't know this
area, you need to find out. If you learned it incorrectly, you need to
repair that. Clarify this area of knowledge with your instructor and
that tower controller (it's possible you misunderstood each other while
discussing this). If he doesn't know it correctly, bring him along to
someone who does, or at least show him the book.

I'm sorry if it sounded that way, but I wasn't being condescending.

Well, ah, certainly no hard feelings (I'm just not like that), but
'remedial' does have a negative connotion to many, though it's true that
there's really nothing so about the dictionary definition of the word.

Airport operations and following taxi instructions are basic knowledge
required to fly safely. You might think it's safe to hold short of a
runway "just in case," but you could have caused a taxiway incursion
by stopping suddenly.

Well, yes, it's most certainly true that the sudden stop was not the
best way to have handled the situation! That said, I'd hope nobody is
on my tail so closely that that's going to cause a collision hazard.

The specific scenario I raised is, unfortunately, apparantly an area of
unclarity for a good number of active pilots. I fly out of D and C
airports quite regularly, and, for one thing, any other time this
situation has arisen I had in fact been explicitly told by the
controller to cross runway x when runway x was active. Seems that most
or many of them like to keep these things crystal clear despite what the
regs say. I cannot recall a single other time when I was given a taxi
instruction that implied crossing an active (but not the destination)
runway without a specific instruction to do so. This may happen at a
good many airports regularly, but I don't think it's the norm at some at
least.

that tower controller (it's possible you misunderstood each other while
discussing this). If he doesn't know it correctly, bring him along to
someone who does, or at least show him the book.

I didn't talk to him, the CFI I mentioned did, and I'm certain that said
CFI had complete understanding of what had occurred.

You've gotten many good answers, but I wanted to reply to one comment
you made in passing where I think you have a serious misconception.
which many people share with you...


Paul Folbrecht wrote in message ...
And I sincerely hope it will be the last.

I sincerely hope it is NOT the last.
NASA forms are designed to report safety issues, not just as a "get
out of jail free card." The get out of jail free aspect is only used
as an added incentive to take the time to fill out the form.
Safety issues may come from something you did wrong, or they may come
from something somebody else did wrong, or they may come from
something where everything was done according to the book, yet an
unsafe condition resulted.
A NASA form should be filed for any of these situations.
Please use them to help others.

TJgirl sez:
NASA forms are designed to report safety issues, not just as a "get
out of jail free card."

There's a lot I didn't know about them, and we discussed them today at my BFR.
For one thing, I didn't know where you could get the form itself...or that
there's one among the back pages of the FAR/AIM! (Hey, I thought it was just
all ads for x-ray glasses and more comics back there)

Now I'm sorry I just threw away an old book. But the form's also online. I'm
going to study it, and while I hope I never have to use one, it's nice to know
it can be for something non-serious and will show intent to be a good pilot in
the case that something embarassing (or worse) happens...

I've always understood that when directed to taxi TO a runway, you are
granted permission to cross any other runway except the one you are taxing
TO... not when you are taxing from a runway to the RAMP.

BT

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
news
And I sincerely hope it will be the last.

I landed at LSE (LaCrosse) on the way home from the twin cities last
week. I landed on 18 and asked for a progressive taxi to the FBO,
having never been there before. Controller told me to turn left on
taxiway bravo down to the construction cones at the end.

As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS
had called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was
over the hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line.
I think it's important to note that the controller had not told me to
hold short of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a
pretty flagrant violation.

After a split second of uncertainty I told tower I was holding at 21.
She immediately told me to continue past in the chipper tone she had
been using all along. Note that nobody had landed on or departed 21
during the entire time of my taxi so there was no loss of separation.

I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even
though no explicit instruction had been given, though I'm not 100% sure
of that (but in the future I'll be damn sure to in similar
circumstances!). And, unless the controller deliberately wanted to make
me believe nothing was wrong for some reason, I believe she either
didn't notice I was over the hold (this intersection is pretty close to
the tower) or didn't care. Her voice indicated nothing out of the
ordinary, as I said. I know they don't 'have to' ask you to call the
tower or let you know they're making a report, though.

Though the logical side of my brain tells me that the chances of some
enforcement action here would be slim, of course I filed the form
regardless. I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that
matter (the chance of some investigation).

BT,

Perhaps we could do our remedial training together?! :-)


BTIZ wrote:

I've always understood that when directed to taxi TO a runway, you are
granted permission to cross any other runway except the one you are taxing
TO... not when you are taxing from a runway to the RAMP.

BT

You were OK to cross the runway without stopping, but it is also OK to ask
the controller if the coast is clear. Barring that, if there is more than
one pilot on board, it is good practice for each pilot to look to his side
and announce "clear left" or "clear right" before crossing either a runway
or a taxiway.

Many pilots and controllers would like to see the rules changed but the
downside is that requiring each aircraft to call the tower or announce on
CTAF before crossing every runway can increase the radio chatter
considerably. There are pilots here that go ballistic just because some
people use a couple extra words such as "with you." They are likely to be
intolerant of the increased radio traffic that would be generated by a
change of the rules for taxiing.