Costs during solo (Instruction)

GEG GEG wrote in message ...
After one qualifies to solo, do you still
pay intructor rates during solo flights?
I would expect that during briefings and
debriefs, one woul.

But do oyu pay for the whole time you are flying?

Thanks!
Hey
Belated answer but you should not have to pay for any solo flight if
your CFI isn't standing right there for either required or necessary
supervision as well as pre/post flight. If there is a flight that
requires me to be at the airport with a student, they know right up
front they will pay for my time as a CFI with a rate equal to flight
time instruction.
As a sidenote, back in the 60's when I began charging for ground time,
I was told I'd lose all my students since NO ONE ELSE was charging for
it. I told them they were nuts and was not going to give away my time.
Wasn't long after that everyone began rightfully charging for their
ground time. Now there are few pilots left who can remember giving
away that precious and valued ground instruction. The airplane is a
lousy classroom.....
If I'm not making a minimum of $25 per hour it simply isn't worth my
time to even drive to the airport.
Selway Kid CFII/RAM Gold Seal (1967)

SelwayKid wrote:

Wasn't long after that everyone began rightfully charging for their
ground time. Now there are few pilots left who can remember giving
away that precious and valued ground instruction. The airplane is a
lousy classroom.....

I'd rather pay the money for ground instruction than pay the instructor fee plus
plane rental to get the same instruction in the air. If a flight school doesn't
charge for ground work, they'll encourage their employees to do it in the plane.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

SelwayKid wrote:

Wasn't long after that everyone began rightfully charging for their
ground time. Now there are few pilots left who can remember giving
away that precious and valued ground instruction. The airplane is a
lousy classroom.....

I'd rather pay the money for ground instruction than pay the instructor fee plus
plane rental to get the same instruction in the air. If a flight school doesn't
charge for ground work, they'll encourage their employees to do it in the plane.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

Excellent - thanks!

I feel strongly of paying for the appropriate hours.
It's more a matter of knowing what to expect as
I start. Some of it involves budgetting appropriately.
It might mean fewer or more hours depending. . .

Thanks again.

Excellent - thanks!

I feel strongly of paying for the appropriate hours.
It's more a matter of knowing what to expect as
I start. Some of it involves budgetting appropriately.
It might mean fewer or more hours depending. . .

Thanks again.

It would also be reasonable to have different rates for flight time,
ground time, and solo supervision.



"Peter Duniho" wrote in
:

GEG wrote in message ...
After one qualifies to solo, do you still
pay intructor rates during solo flights?
I would expect that during briefings and
debriefs, one woul.

But do oyu pay for the whole time you are flying?

Generally speaking, if you are consuming the instructor's time, you
should be paying for his time. This includes supervised solos, when
the instructor is (should be) monitoring your flight and is focused
entirely on you.

In my experience, deviations from this norm occur when the instructor
fails to charge for time he actually invested. I've never heard of an
instructor charging for time that he didn't actually put in, but if
you did run into that situation, I'd look for another instructor, one
who takes his job more seriously.

Deviations in the other direction (not charging even though the
instructor is still working for you) are at the instructor's
discretion, and you should NEVER expect them. Personally, I think any
time an instructor fails to charge for time he actually puts in, he's
simply devaluing all instructors' time, and setting up poor
expectations for students. Rounding down by 5 minutes isn't a
problem, but an instructor who is regularly foregoing quarter-hour or
more chunks of payment is helping no one, not even the student they
might think they are helping.

A situation when I'd expect to pay the instructor for solo time would
be when I'm making a solo flight at the airport where the instructor
has remained, and the instructor is watching the flight and/or
listening on a handheld, and otherwise is still involved in the solo
flight.

Situations where I wouldn't expect to pay the instructor for the solo
time would include flights away from the airport, be they local
flights or cross-country flights.

Regardless, I would expect pre- and post-flight briefings to be paid
for, as you suggest.

Pete




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"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
. 5...
It would also be reasonable to have different rates for flight time,
ground time, and solo supervision.

Why? You're not paying for physical labor. You're paying for the
instructor's experience and ability to teach you something. That doesn't
change depending on the nature of the instruction.

"Peter Duniho" wrote in
:

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
. 5...
It would also be reasonable to have different rates for flight time,
ground time, and solo supervision.

Why? You're not paying for physical labor. You're paying for the
instructor's experience and ability to teach you something. That
doesn't change depending on the nature of the instruction.






I see your point of view, but I beg to differ. You are paying for the
services you actually receive, not what the provider is capable of
performing. For example, a physician can charge more for performing surgery
than for a routine office visit, even if both tasks involve the same length
of time. Another example, I am a professor, and I charge more for
consulting work than for teaching. I get paid more for teaching graduate
students than for undergraduate students. Our FBO charges more for
instrument instruction than primary instruction, even if it is the same
instructor teaching both. I really believe that solo supervision does not
place as much demands on the instructor as inflight instruction. However,
an independent instructor is free to set whatever rates he wants. That will
depend on what the market can bear.






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"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
. 4...
[...]
For example, a physician can charge more for performing surgery
than for a routine office visit, even if both tasks involve the same
length
of time.

Because there are physicians unqualified for surgery competing with the
office practice.

Another example, I am a professor, and I charge more for
consulting work than for teaching.

Because there are teachers unqualified for the consulting work competing
with the classroom practice.

I get paid more for teaching graduate
students than for undergraduate students.

I find this bizarre, but then...practically everything about the "business"
of higher learning I find bizarre.

Our FBO charges more for
instrument instruction than primary instruction, even if it is the same
instructor teaching both.

I've never heard of an FBO with a fee structure like that. I would probably
avoid such an FBO, unless they were the only choice available. However, the
difference is still explainable by the same thing I said earlier: the fee
difference exists because there are flight instructors unqualified for the
instrument training competing for the primary instruction.

I really believe that solo supervision does not
place as much demands on the instructor as inflight instruction.

Possibly, depending on the instructor. But a *good* instructor will be
paying just as much attention to the solo flight as they do to a dual
flight, and will offer just as much useful insight during the postflight
briefing based his observations as he would after a dual flight.

Perhaps you are thinking of instructors who attempt to do all their teaching
in the cockpit. But a good instructor knows that the loud and busy cockpit
is a lousy place to try to teach. The difference between dual and solo
supervision should be minimal. For an instructor where the difference is
large, they are either trying to do too much in the cockpit, or they are not
giving their student their full attention and value during solo supervision.

However,
an independent instructor is free to set whatever rates he wants. That
will
depend on what the market can bear.

Indeed. But don't mistake that for proof of what is reasonable or ethically
valid. The incredibly low wage and poor working conditions that instructors
experience is a clear enough counter-example, regardless of what fee
structures exist within that environment.

Pete

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:45:25 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
wrote:

Our FBO charges more for
instrument instruction than primary instruction, even if it is the same
instructor teaching both.

I've never heard of an FBO with a fee structure like that. I would probably
avoid such an FBO, unless they were the only choice available.


Almost every airport in my area does this. I don't agree with it
either. They also charge almost double for instruction in your own
aircraft, which I find even worse since it helps deter owners from
seeking additional instruction.

z