Taildragger tail dragging?

Shawn,

As folks have told you, the answer is yes for most tailwheel airplanes
(not all, it's a question of elevator authority and c.g.).

Interestingly, in about 1970 the Iowa State University flying team used
an 85 hp. J-3 Cub as one of its competition airplanes in the national
championships of the Intercollegiate flying competition in Bozeman,
Montana. The rules at that time for the spot landing for tailwheel
airplanes was to measure the point at which the mains touched. On
approach, power could be reduced, but never reapplied. The Iowa State
guys figured out the minimum power setting to roll the tailwheel, but
keep the mains aloft in that Cub. They'd roll the tailwheel at some
point short of the "line", keep the mains in the air until just about
there, then close the throttle. They got so their accuracy was
incredible. After the meet, the rules were changed.

All the best,
Rick

ShawnD2112 wrote:
Got a question for you taildragger old-timers.

I've often thought about attitude and altitude control with power and

elevator in various combinations and have wondered if it's possible
to get a
taildragger to literally drag it's tailwheel on the runway with the
mains
off, and do it intentionally, kind of like slowflight but REALLY low
over
the runway. I mean, we often try to land tailwheel first, so I was
wondering if it's possible to set up to do it partially and prevent
the
mains from touching. I've tried in the Tcraft but can't seem to
manage it.

Anyone here ever done such a thing?

Shawn

Woooahhh...that test was done 35 years ago and yet the conclusion holds
true today!
Therein lies/lays the problem in todays flying! What has happened to
those skills?
I can vividly recall my primary instructor reducing power and saying,
"show me what ya got.." Then he said you can reduce it, but not
increase it. Hae used that same scenario ever since. So many times that
I ran into difficulties when I could not get more power and had to do
with what I had.
My whole thing is to fly the edges of the aircraft envelope at both
ends of the spectrum. Generally though, the lower speeds are where most
pilots run into problems and have the serious accidents.when they do
the silly stall/spin thing.
Silly because it should never happen. Serious of course when people get
hurt or killed. Stupid when the pilot fails to get the proper training.
arrggghhh Ol SOB

jsmith wrote

Dutch Roll

Maule Driver wrote:
When you do that fast and hold the nose on a point it's called a
??????,
isn't it. Can't remember the name of that damn manuever but my long
ago
glider instructor used to teach it. I think he just did it to sicken
the male pilots so he could spend more time with the coeds in this
college club but it was a challenge anyway.

From this web site: www. douglasdc3.com/sohn/41.htm

(1) One method would be while in straight and level flight to pick a
point on the horizon and enter a turn away

from it for some amount of turn and then, without stopping, reverse the
turn to pass through the original point

in the opposite direction, then again reverse the turn and so on, while
all the time coordinating the flight

controls (especially the rudder and ailerons). (2) Another variation or
method used is to pick a straight road

or a point on the horizon. Then precisely hold that point while
initiating a bank (takes opposite rudder), then

reverse the bank to an equal amount in the opposite direction. This is
repeated over and over while using the

flight controls to precisely maintain that point (especially the rudder
and ailerons). This variation especially

lends itself to getting the student ready for the aggressive use of the
rudder in acrobatic flight.

Evidently – to a certain number of instructors – the above aileron/rudder
coordination exercises (especially

#2, the one that holds the reference point) that we all give our new
students are called “dutch rolls”.

Well, we’ve got some news for you, chum! Those aren’t “dutch rolls”,
they’re simply plain old garden variety

“coordination exercises” or “coordination rolls”. And – undeniably –
they’re extremely useful for teaching

coordination or for quickly evaluating an aircraft’s handling qualities!
I’ve used them from the very first time

I took my first lesson in an Aeronca Champ right up until the present.
When we were aviation cadets in

“Bevo” Howard’s USAF T-6 school, we were taught them from the very first
day of our flight training. BUT

THOSE ARE NOT DUTCH ROLLS! You copy that? “Sorry Charlie” but no cigar,
those are NOT dutch

rolls! No big deal, you say? Well, OK, but you need to realize that
when you use an incorrect term it’s

teaching your student something completely wrong. It’s sort of like the
media using the term “Piper Cub” for every airplane less than a medium
sized jet. And – besides perpetrating a falsehood – it can later kill

him/her! And if you don’t think or realize that a dutch roll can easily
become lethal, look up the

Braniff/Boeing 707 (N-7071) flight training accident involving the
tossing of a couple of pylon mounted

engines off the wings in the fall of 1959.

And....from the Jeppesen Private Pilot Manual:

Dutch roll is a combination of rolling/yawing oscillations caused either
by your control input or by wind gusts.

Dutch roll will normally occur when the dihedral effects of an aircraft
are more powerful than the directional

stability. After a disturbance resulting in a yawing motion and sideslip,
the dihedral effect will tend to roll the

aircraft away from the direction of the initial yaw. However, due to weak
directional stability, the rolling

movement may overshoot the level position and reverse the sideslip. This
motion continues to repeat, creating

an oscillation that can be felt by the pilot as side-to-side wagging of
the aircraft's tail. If Dutch roll tendency is

not effectively dampened, it is considered objectionable.

The alternative to an airplane that exhibits Dutch roll tendencies is a
design that has better directional

stability than lateral stability. If directional stability is increased
and lateral stability is decreased, the Dutch

roll motion is adequately suppressed. However, this design arrangement
tends to cause spiral instability.

"Bob Moore" wrote a bunch of stuff.

Wow, was that a hard to read post, or what? What was the deal with all of
the skipped lines?
--
Jim in NC

Bob
With all due respect, it appears one description of Dutch Roll is an
aircraft flight tendency, the other is a deliberate flight manuever?
Having seen a number of opposing arguments about the term of Dutch
Roll, and agreeing with the various points of view. I'll stick with the
term to describe it as I previously posted. Not picking a fight over it
by any means.
Same could be said of the Chandelle and its various ways of
accomplishment and purpose.
If it was good enough for my old instructor with a 6 digit license
number and still active, I guess its good enough for me and my 7 digit
number and still active.
BTW, I never flew any heavy iron and have no desire to do so.
Best professional regards
Ol S&B

Ol SOB,
I agree with you completely. Until I got the Pitts, about 75% of my
tailwheel time was within gliding distance of a field. I practice every
conceiveable approach, takeoff, engine failure, landing, you name it. I
liked to think I flew the airplane better at idle than I did at cruise and I
certainly knew what it was going to be like (or as near as you can get) if
the engine quit. I haven't carried any power in an approach in years, using
only a trickle if I have to to recover a low approach angle. And that's how
every airplane out to be flown regularly (on the edges of the envelope) to
keep your skills sharp and so you'll know what to do if everything goes to a
ball of chalk.

In the vein, some of the most fun I've had flying has been the hours I've
spent in a Cub or Tcraft under 300 feet and within the airfield fence.
Fantastic!!!

Shawn
wrote in message
oups.com...
Woooahhh...that test was done 35 years ago and yet the conclusion holds
true today!
Therein lies/lays the problem in todays flying! What has happened to
those skills?
I can vividly recall my primary instructor reducing power and saying,
"show me what ya got.." Then he said you can reduce it, but not
increase it. Hae used that same scenario ever since. So many times that
I ran into difficulties when I could not get more power and had to do
with what I had.
My whole thing is to fly the edges of the aircraft envelope at both
ends of the spectrum. Generally though, the lower speeds are where most
pilots run into problems and have the serious accidents.when they do
the silly stall/spin thing.
Silly because it should never happen. Serious of course when people get
hurt or killed. Stupid when the pilot fails to get the proper training.
arrggghhh Ol SOB

Now that, to me, describes real stick and rudder skills and sounds like a
hell of a lot of fun. I can't wait to get back in the Tcraft and give it a
go!

Shawn
wrote in message
oups.com...
Shawn,

As folks have told you, the answer is yes for most tailwheel airplanes
(not all, it's a question of elevator authority and c.g.).

Interestingly, in about 1970 the Iowa State University flying team used
an 85 hp. J-3 Cub as one of its competition airplanes in the national
championships of the Intercollegiate flying competition in Bozeman,
Montana. The rules at that time for the spot landing for tailwheel
airplanes was to measure the point at which the mains touched. On
approach, power could be reduced, but never reapplied. The Iowa State
guys figured out the minimum power setting to roll the tailwheel, but
keep the mains aloft in that Cub. They'd roll the tailwheel at some
point short of the "line", keep the mains in the air until just about
there, then close the throttle. They got so their accuracy was
incredible. After the meet, the rules were changed.

All the best,
Rick

ShawnD2112 wrote:
Got a question for you taildragger old-timers.

I've often thought about attitude and altitude control with power and

elevator in various combinations and have wondered if it's possible
to get a
taildragger to literally drag it's tailwheel on the runway with the
mains
off, and do it intentionally, kind of like slowflight but REALLY low
over
the runway. I mean, we often try to land tailwheel first, so I was
wondering if it's possible to set up to do it partially and prevent
the
mains from touching. I've tried in the Tcraft but can't seem to
manage it.

Anyone here ever done such a thing?

Shawn

"Morgans" wrote


"Bob Moore" wrote a bunch of stuff.

Wow, was that a hard to read post, or what? What was the deal with
all of the skipped lines?

It was "copy and paste" from a web site. I was just too lazy
to edit it.

Bob