One Design viability?

But isn't this already possible with the Club Class?

Well, not really. The Clubs consist mostly of the aging standard class =
gliders (first it was a different class truly, but now it's the mostly =
made of the old standards) and they're most often harder to drive than =
the PW-5. For someone who had flown thousand of hours it has virtually =
no importance, but for someone with 50 hours the importance of this fact =
may be really big. I know what I am saying, just because I had flown the =
PW-5 and the Jantar Standard (41a) for the first time in almost the same =
week, and I assure You, there's a huge difference in handling, =
especially if one lands in a limited area paddock and has low number of =
hours logged. I just remember from these flights that the PW-5 is just =
the fun to fly, and the Jantar Standard experience was a bit stressing =
in the first few flights, even if I had large amount of hours in Cobra. =
Following this track, I'd say the PW-5 gives more possibilities for a =
low time pilot to feel the spirit of racing, still keeping his flying =
very safe and allowing to learn racing from the very basics and =
practicing the fundamentals of cross country flying including e.g. =
altitude management which surely will show it's interest rate later, if =
one will switch to hotter ships. Plus of course the NEW PW-5 is one of =
the most affordable on the market, but it's a second thread. Personally =
if I was to buy a new glider, I'd choose between Junior and PW-5 only.

Regards,


--=20
Janusz Kesik

visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl

As I see it, the only thing that would get the world class moving would be
for it to be accepted as an Olympic sport. Then we would really see some
interest.
-Bob Korves

"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...
With winter upon us in the northern hemisphere, the annual PW5 thread had=
reappeared. I started thinking about this ship and one design racing an=
d thought I might post this. I started thinking about this topic in the =
summer when I saw two full size bus conversion RV's pulling two brand-new=
looking glider trailers on what appeared to be a trip to a national cont=
est. From my location in Colorado and then license plates on the caravan=
, it was at least a 3 day drive. Pilots have every right to spend their=
hard earned money in whatever way they see fit, but watching $200K+ roll=
ing down the road reminded me of the yacht racing aspect of our sport.

With such a small percentage of pilots who compete, and the amount of tim=
e it consumes, and the amount of money it costs regardless of the ship be=
ing used-is their really any sort of demand for low cost "one design"? P=
articularly in light of sports class here in the USA. One design still r=
equires $4K+ of instruments/loggers/software/PDA to be competitive. It s=
till requires long travels and much(all) vacation time used up. 1-26ers =
love their ships, but I am not so sure they would take that enthusiasm to=
another bird. And 1-26 racing involves different models of the ship whi=
ch makes the idea of an identical performing ship somewhat suspect. =20

And I just don't see how any bird being built currently can price itself =
below a nice used LS3 or 4. So rather then beat up the little PW5, maybe=
we need to look harder at the concept of one design racing. I like the =
idea but am not sure that in this day and age that is where so much effor=
t needs to go IMVHO. While digesting turkey thought I would write this o=
ut. =20

Scott,

One problem with this idea is that the difference in "performance" in
sailing has a different impact than in gliding. I used to race Lightnings
as well as Sunfish. Two very different boats, one MUCH higher
"performance." However, as long as the wind was blowing even a little bit,
you could have a good, fair race regardless of the craft. So, we were able
to race almost every time we went to the marina. And, we could even run
the same courses, just a little slower.

Now think about soaring. Especially outside of those few areas that have
ideal conditions most of the time, the difference between 30:1 and a sharply
descending polar vs. 40:1 and a relatively flat polar is the difference
between going somewhere and flying locally. Already in the US, we've had a
number of "World Class" competitions in conjunction with the other FAI
classes. Almost without fail, the World Class folks have struggled to get
in a day (even a drastically shortened course) while the FAI guys were off
doing 300K. In some cases, these World Class ships were flown by good
competition pilots.

My conclusion is that performance matters more in soaring than in sailing.
Given that, the next question that pops up is purely one of economics. If I
can have much better performance for a similar price, making the ship usable
not only for races but badges and fun flying as well, then . . .






"Scott Correa" wrote in message
...
All a one design class needs to be successful is a sanctioning
body making it THE choice for contests. Look at the olympics.
Solings for gods sake, tornado's and other low performance
boats. Very strict rules on planform and construction. IMHO
there are much better race boats in the world than what theey use.
The key is that they use them, have contests and promote it as a
class boat.

The PW5 only needs for the sanctioning body of soaring to adopt it
and have a world championship at the venue that the other classes
are held. There are people who would fly for a world title in the class
if it was flown and promoted that way.

Scott.

Janusz,

Show me a "$15,000" PW5 (with competition instruments,a trailer, and
imported into the US) and I'll buy it. Of course, I'll turn around and
sell it for the $28,000 or so it really costs, then buy a nice LS-4.




"Janusz Kesik" wrote in message
...
If the
idea pushing the one design concept is: 'More racing
generates more interest in the sport of soaring,
which causes our numbers to grow'

Wasn't that the absolutely first aim of generating the World Class?
Making equal racing possible in a $15000 worth PW-5, which is also easy to
fly makes it more accesible.
And that means more racing the most probably.

Regards,


--
Janusz Kesik

visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl

Forgot to mention as well that a good, used Sunfish can be had for some
$2,000 (or less) with sail and trailer and a lightning with sails (maybe no
spinnaker) and trailer should set you back less than $5,000.


"Papa3" wrote in message
link.net...
Scott,

One problem with this idea is that the difference in "performance" in
sailing has a different impact than in gliding. I used to race Lightnings
as well as Sunfish. Two very different boats, one MUCH higher
"performance." However, as long as the wind was blowing even a little
bit,
you could have a good, fair race regardless of the craft. So, we were
able
to race almost every time we went to the marina. And, we could even run
the same courses, just a little slower.

Now think about soaring. Especially outside of those few areas that have
ideal conditions most of the time, the difference between 30:1 and a
sharply
descending polar vs. 40:1 and a relatively flat polar is the difference
between going somewhere and flying locally. Already in the US, we've had
a
number of "World Class" competitions in conjunction with the other FAI
classes. Almost without fail, the World Class folks have struggled to get
in a day (even a drastically shortened course) while the FAI guys were off
doing 300K. In some cases, these World Class ships were flown by good
competition pilots.

My conclusion is that performance matters more in soaring than in sailing.
Given that, the next question that pops up is purely one of economics. If
I
can have much better performance for a similar price, making the ship
usable
not only for races but badges and fun flying as well, then . . .






"Scott Correa" wrote in message
...
All a one design class needs to be successful is a sanctioning
body making it THE choice for contests. Look at the olympics.
Solings for gods sake, tornado's and other low performance
boats. Very strict rules on planform and construction. IMHO
there are much better race boats in the world than what theey use.
The key is that they use them, have contests and promote it as a
class boat.

The PW5 only needs for the sanctioning body of soaring to adopt it
and have a world championship at the venue that the other classes
are held. There are people who would fly for a world title in the class
if it was flown and promoted that way.

Scott.

Hei,

Waduino wrote:


For the benefit of a newbie (me), could someone provide the short, i.e. not
the long, technical, legal, or whatever definition of the following:
1. Club Class

Basically older no longer competitive standard class gliders. Contests
are scored according to a handicaping system. Only a limited handicap
range is permitted. See www.wgc2004.no.

2. Sport Class

Same as Club Class, but wider handicap ranges permitted to enter, I
beleive. Also older 15m class gliders are permitted. Basically the US
counterpart to the European/international club class, but is also
popular in other countries. Propably not as "serious" as club class.
Rules and definitions might vary between countries.

Standard class has wing span limmited to 15m, and no chamber changing
flaps are allowed.

3. 15m Class - OK, I can guess wing span limited to 15m

Jepp. And chamber chainging flaps are permitted. Also, for some
reason, called "racing class".

4. 18m Class - another guess, wing span limited to 18m.

Jepp.

Christian 8-)

"Bob Korves" bkorves@winfirstPOINTcom wrote in message
...
As I see it, the only thing that would get the world class moving would be
for it to be accepted as an Olympic sport. Then we would really see some
interest.
-Bob Korves


Absolutely correct.
It is the VENUE in which the class flys that makes or
breaks the class participation.

Scott

Ansgar Sambale I think, I remember him well.
Not at all crazy, and not particularly old in the days when you and I knew
him.

He was certainly German, he had been in the Hitler youth and had got to the
UK by being shot down in his Me109. He never went back after the war, I
think his home was in what became E. Germany.

I first met Ansgar in September 1965 when I visited Portmoak with the first
Lasham expedition organised by Alan Purnell, he was the professional in
charge mid-week. I then went again every year until about 1985, Ansgar was
always there, but in the later years he was working for the Fife schools and
not the club. We all had the greatest respect for him.

I learnt to fly on a public course at the London club, Dunstable in October
1963, my instructor was Mike Denham-Till and the other instructor was John
Jeffries. Last season the course instructors at Dunstable were John
Jeffries and Mike Till, and I gather they will be back there next year.
The only change is that in the early 1960's Mike spent his winters ski
instructing in the Alps, now he spends the winters gliding instructing in
New Zealand.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"apusapus" wrote in message
...

snip

Back in the days when the summers lasted forever and I had a full head of
hair, I was minded to take up the sport of gliding. I stumbled along to
the Scottish Gliding Union where a crazy old German by the name of Ansgar
Samble (Hi, Ansgar. I still remember your full brake approaches, you
*******!) proceeded to try to teach me how to fly. Eventually, that task
was finished by the tiny but perfectly-formed Alan Middleton from Deeside,
and I became a fully-fledged glider pilot, ready to take on the world.

snip

Roger.

"W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.)." wrote in message
...

Ansgar Sambale I think, I remember him well.
Not at all crazy, and not particularly old in the days when you and I knew
him.

Sorry, I didn't intend to come across as rude. 'Crazy' was a term I was
using, in this instance, with affection.

Having said that, I can't imagine why on my very first flight EVER, Ansgar
considered it appropriate to demonstrate a full brake approach in a creaky
Capstan which left me dangling from the straps as we pointed down at what
felt like 90 degrees. I think it was all part of his "treat 'em rough,
make 'em tough" philosophy. I remember him muttering darkly one spring
morning that in his younger days the gliders would be on the field ready to
fly at sunrise. He couldn't understand why we didn't share his enthusiasm
for flying from early dawn 'til dusk.

Unsurprisingly, he was at Portmoak the day I arrived with youngest son and
offered to fly him in the Falke as he didn't qualify for a 'friends and
family' flight in a pure glider. I politely declined, lacking the courage
to see my favourite child thrown about the sky by a pilot who is no longer
in the first flush of youth. However, it was a typically generous gesture
by a man who has a life-long commitment to flying in all its forms, and to
passing on his love of gliding to subsequent generations. As you
suggested, he's a fine guy, and those of us that have met him are all the
better for the experience.

Your mention of the legendary Jeffries - together with your own notoriety
(another term being used with affection) within the gliding community - has
turned this into one of those "they don't make 'em like the used to" posts.
And, sadly, they don't. However, before I get too misty-eyed, why the hell
didn't you guys sort out gliding when it was salvageable? If you chaps had
acted in the 70's and 80's instead of swanning around in your Kestrels, we
might have had a vibrant and challenging sport, rather than a refuge for the
wealthy but largely talentless individuals cluttering the thermals today.


Roger.

You are right on, performance is critical to glider competition. 40:1 is
the magic threshold (with a decent high speed polar for penetration, see
below for definition) for really going cross country, at least in the
Eastern US.

Ah, the endless World Class thread. Heck, its 22 degrees outsde, here's the
" whole story". Might help someone brand new to soaring.

As an avid one design sailor coming to soaring 10 years ago, I was an active
supporter of the PW-5 movement to the point that I bought a half share in
one. I did this against the advise of very experienced competition pilots
and ultimately found that they were right. I also had a 1/2 share in a Grob
102 (15 meter Standard Class, about 36:1). The PW was a delightful handling
ship with limited penetration ability (the ability to fly fast without
falling out of the sky, handy for going upwind which is essential for out
and return cross country) due to its high flat plate area (that upright
cockpit has a price) and a low L/D (32:1) due to its short wing span (13.6
meters). For me it was easier and safer to take the Grob cross country
since it penetrated better.

After a few years I bit the bullet, sold the 1/2 shares and bought my own
ASW-20 (15 meter class 42:1 machine with excellent penetration for its
span). After my first flight I got out saying that "this is a different
sport now". What seemed like unachievable flights before became almost
routine. The learning curve accellerated. After attending a few
competitions where it was difficult to get in three days in the 20, I
couldn't imagine trying to get in a decent competition in the PW.
Performance not only matters, but it is critical to get to the 40:1
threshold. Strangely, this fact is generally accepted, but somehow it was
set aside by the World Class Committee in the interest of lower cost. Also,
twice the performance of a 1-26 probably seemed pretty attractive to many
even though it didn't meet the 40:1 threshold.

I am now in the camp of those competition veterans I once ignored. One
Design cross county out and back racing makes some sense, but only in a
glider of at least LS-4 performance. I was always bugged by those that said
they would rather buy a used LS-4 rather than a PW since the supply of used
gliders is by definition finite. IMHO, if we want a One Design, let's make
it something like the LS-4 and put enough promotion and infrastructure
behind it to be able to realize some economies of volume. Better yet let's
make it the 20, that way I could keep what I got forever, something I'll
probably do anyway :-).

Hope this story helps someone out there.

Best Regards,
Steve Sovis
ASW-20CL "US"



"Papa3" wrote in message
link.net...
Scott,

One problem with this idea is that the difference in "performance" in
sailing has a different impact than in gliding. I used to race Lightnings
as well as Sunfish. Two very different boats, one MUCH higher
"performance." However, as long as the wind was blowing even a little
bit,
you could have a good, fair race regardless of the craft. So, we were
able
to race almost every time we went to the marina. And, we could even run
the same courses, just a little slower.

Now think about soaring. Especially outside of those few areas that have
ideal conditions most of the time, the difference between 30:1 and a
sharply
descending polar vs. 40:1 and a relatively flat polar is the difference
between going somewhere and flying locally. Already in the US, we've had
a
number of "World Class" competitions in conjunction with the other FAI
classes. Almost without fail, the World Class folks have struggled to get
in a day (even a drastically shortened course) while the FAI guys were off
doing 300K. In some cases, these World Class ships were flown by good
competition pilots.

My conclusion is that performance matters more in soaring than in sailing.
Given that, the next question that pops up is purely one of economics. If
I
can have much better performance for a similar price, making the ship
usable
not only for races but badges and fun flying as well, then . . .






"Scott Correa" wrote in message
...
All a one design class needs to be successful is a sanctioning
body making it THE choice for contests. Look at the olympics.
Solings for gods sake, tornado's and other low performance
boats. Very strict rules on planform and construction. IMHO
there are much better race boats in the world than what theey use.
The key is that they use them, have contests and promote it as a
class boat.

The PW5 only needs for the sanctioning body of soaring to adopt it
and have a world championship at the venue that the other classes
are held. There are people who would fly for a world title in the class
if it was flown and promoted that way.

Scott.