Why is Soaring declining

On 13 Apr 2004 22:43:27 -0700, (Lennie the
Lurker) wrote:

right away. Almost every sailplane made today is made with the
competitor in mind, and the manufacturers aren't going to listen to
any suggestion that maybe something more pedestrian might sell. Which
suits the competitors quite well, and insures that the number of new
people will remain small, and declining.

About 8 years ago, about the only new hang gliders available were
curent competion models and aged designs for beginners and
intermediates. Wills Wing introduced a modern training/novice glider
and soon couldn't keep up with the orders. Other firms took note and
saw similar results. Competition gliders went topless (rigid cross
bars, no upper wires) and the topless race was on. That settled down
and allowed the manufacters to turn their attention to the long
neglected middle performance wings. A US rep of an eastern europen
company convinced them to build a modern intermediate glider that
could glide with the racers when flying 40mph and below, but with
forgiving handling, launch and landing characterists. The result was
an almost instant 2 year order backlog. There are now several such
wings available and I know two guys who sold their comp gliders to buy
one.

All it takes is for one manufacture to have a winner and others will
follow. Given the small size of the market and the uncertainty of
acceptance that may mean putting the financial survival of the firm on
the line. Maybe it will happen when a company has to choose between
inovatation of bankruptcy.

Bob Greenblatt wrote:
At the risk of encouraging him, Lennie's recent post to this thread is the
most logical and reasoned of any of his (and most everyone else's) that I
have read recently. Thanks Leninie, good points.

Lennie's actually pressed this point before, but too many of us are
defensive, and don't look past the tactlessness to see the the truth of
what he is saying.

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Lennie the Lurker wrote:
Almost every sailplane made today is made with the
competitor in mind, and the manufacturers aren't going to listen to
any suggestion that maybe something more pedestrian might sell.

There is some truth to this claim, but it's more complicated than the
manufacturers "not listening". They know their gliders must do well in
competition (at least the major factories), because potential buyers
think this is important, even though the majority of buyers aren't
serious competitors (note that the majority of the German sailplane
production is now motorized).

There are some "second-tier" gliders, like the reintroduction of the
Glasflugel 304, the Russia AC-4, Apis, and Silent; however, any new
glider that isn't a top-of-the-line glider has some serious competition
in the market: used gliders. Glider last a long time, and the
performance improvements have been slow, so a new glider that isn't
better, just cheaper, has to compete with equal performance, even
cheaper used gliders.

This situation is quite different from the hang glider market, where the
gliders wear out much sooner, and the improvements from year to year are
much greater than they are for sailplanes.

and the manufacturers aren't going to listen to
any suggestion that maybe something more pedestrian might sell.

Just join a thread ripping apart the PW5 to see how something "more
pedestrian" might sell. The PW5 actually has sold OK, as did the Russia,
and so that may be why we now have the Apis and Silent (at least in
part). Attitudes are slowly changing, and "moderate" performance is
becoming more acceptable.

The manufacturers would probably build more intermediate gliders if the
sport was growing fast enough to drive up the price of the used gliders,
thus making a new glider of similar performance profitable enough to be
worthwhile.
--
-----
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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Soaring magazine for me is the biggest newbie benefit/opportunity of
SSA (badges are another, but for the more experienced). I doubt
we'll get a "newbie corner," but if SSA made one issue
a year the "swimsuit/newbie issue" and spiced up the covers
of the ither issues, I bet that would get on a few
barber shop waiting room chairs...

--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

"Tim Mara" wrote in message
there is one very solid reason soaring is declining.that is the lack of
qualified gliding instructors!
If any of us expect to keep soaring alive it's not only recruiting new
members, but also, and more inportantly, having someone available to bring
these new recruits to the poinyt where that can actually get certification
and eventually fly and own their own gliders....

Yep, and a lot of instructors are quitting because they are fed up with the
back seat of a 2-33.

Bill Daniels

Well, Blaniks at $10k is a steal, and I have a ton of fun in 'em...
The 2-33 seems like a stone compared to an L-13 :P

--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Fortunately SSA is really selling those logo items, and tapping
that better. I'd love an exciting SSA calendar too if they'd
get those acro/formation/skydiving/multi-towing photos I talked about :P

How about somebody doing the first loop with a
dual formation Stearman and a wingwalker while towing acro gliders?

:PPPPPP

In article ,
Scott wrote:
As a newcomer to soaring (I have a grand total of 0.5 hours under my
belt), I was turned off to SSA simply by the (what I consider) high
membership dues. Yes, I can afford it, but having never seen an SSA
magazine, I am reluctant to fork out the cash to see if I like their
publication. Maybe they should offer a trial membership, something like
$10 for 3 months (a one-time deal). EAA has done this and I think it is
working. I don't really need to pay $64 for the privilege of soaring,
so there has to be some incentive to join. Just a thought...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Eric presents a reasonable picture of the glider market. In fact, I think
the present glider market is about right. There is a market for
state-of-the-art gliders for competition and a flourishing market in used
gliders.

A person of modest means can buy a 20 year old glass glider with spectacular
performance. That 20 year old glider wouldn't be such a bargain on the used
market if some competition pilot hadn't bought it for an astronomical sum
when it was new. We need to stop knocking competition, it creates a market
of really neat used gliders. When I started, if you wanted a high
performance glider, you had to build it. By comparison, this market is
nirvana. The availability and cost of gliders isn't the real problem.

One of the many problems that does need attention is training costs. Rental
and airtow make getting a glider rating cost more than a private power
certificate in many locations. It's also a LOT more hassle to get glider
training because of the short flights and long waits. For anyone interested
in aviation but who hasn't chosen whether to go for soaring or another
aviation related activity, this is a problem. Glider training costs,
particularly the overall hourly rates, just don't look reasonable by
comparison.

Now, I'm NOT suggesting that anyone is overcharging for rentals or air tows.
It costs what is does for very good reasons. It's just that those reasons
are not apparent to the newcomer.

I think it might be a good idea to take a long hard look at the training
"experience" from the students point of view to see if there isn't something
that could be done to make it more attractive. The first thing I would
suggest is to look at winch launch for training.

Bill Daniels

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
Lennie the Lurker wrote:
Almost every sailplane made today is made with the
competitor in mind, and the manufacturers aren't going to listen to
any suggestion that maybe something more pedestrian might sell.

There is some truth to this claim, but it's more complicated than the
manufacturers "not listening". They know their gliders must do well in
competition (at least the major factories), because potential buyers
think this is important, even though the majority of buyers aren't
serious competitors (note that the majority of the German sailplane
production is now motorized).

There are some "second-tier" gliders, like the reintroduction of the
Glasflugel 304, the Russia AC-4, Apis, and Silent; however, any new
glider that isn't a top-of-the-line glider has some serious competition
in the market: used gliders. Glider last a long time, and the
performance improvements have been slow, so a new glider that isn't
better, just cheaper, has to compete with equal performance, even
cheaper used gliders.

This situation is quite different from the hang glider market, where the
gliders wear out much sooner, and the improvements from year to year are
much greater than they are for sailplanes.

and the manufacturers aren't going to listen to
any suggestion that maybe something more pedestrian might sell.

Just join a thread ripping apart the PW5 to see how something "more
pedestrian" might sell. The PW5 actually has sold OK, as did the Russia,
and so that may be why we now have the Apis and Silent (at least in
part). Attitudes are slowly changing, and "moderate" performance is
becoming more acceptable.

The manufacturers would probably build more intermediate gliders if the
sport was growing fast enough to drive up the price of the used gliders,
thus making a new glider of similar performance profitable enough to be
worthwhile.
--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

All it takes to get a Soaring Mag in the barbers chair
is to take one you are finished with and drop it in
there. I drop them at the doctors office and in the
university library. Also if someone feels they are
not willing to join the SSA to read the mag and want
to check it out, just drop me an email and I will send
you a couple of issues that are a month or two old.
I am sure a lot of other guys would be willing to pass
theirs on as well. Like a lot of guys I collected them
for about 25 years until I realized I would never read
most of them again. jeffAt 02:54 15 April 2004, Bill Daniels wrote:Eric presents a reasonable picture of the glider market.
In fact, I thinkthe present glider market is about right. There is
a market forstate-of-the-art gliders for competition and a flourishing
market in usedgliders.A person of modest means can buy a 20 year old glass
glider with spectacularperformance. That 20 year old glider wouldn't be such
a bargain on the usedmarket if some competition pilot hadn't bought it for
an astronomical sumwhen it was new. We need to stop knocking competition,
it creates a marketof really neat used gliders. When I started, if you
wanted a highperformance glider, you had to build it. By comparison,
this market isnirvana. The availability and cost of gliders isn't
the real problem.One of the many problems that does need attention is
training costs. Rentaland airtow make getting a glider rating cost more than
a private powercertificate in many locations. It's also a LOT more
hassle to get glidertraining because of the short flights and long waits.
For anyone interestedin aviation but who hasn't chosen whether to go for
soaring or anotheraviation related activity, this is a problem. Glider
training costs,particularly the overall hourly rates, just don't look
reasonable bycomparison.Now, I'm NOT suggesting that anyone is overcharging
for rentals or air tows.It costs what is does for very good reasons. It's
just that those reasonsare not apparent to the newcomer.I think it might be a good idea to take a long hard
look at the training'experience' from the students point of view to see
if there isn't somethingthat could be done to make it more attractive. The
first thing I wouldsuggest is to look at winch launch for training.Bill Daniels'Eric Greenwell' wrote in ... Lennie the Lurker wrote: Almost every sailplane made today is made with the competitor in mind, and the manufacturers aren't
going to listen to any suggestion that maybe something more pedestrian
might sell. There is some truth to this claim, but it's more complicated
than the manufacturers 'not listening'. They know their gliders
must do well in competition (at least the major factories), because
potential buyers think this is important, even though the majority
of buyers aren't serious competitors (note that the majority of the
German sailplane production is now motorized). There are some 'second-tier' gliders, like the reintroduction
of the Glasflugel 304, the Russia AC-4, Apis, and Silent;
however, any new glider that isn't a top-of-the-line glider has some
serious competition in the market: used gliders. Glider last a long time,
and the performance improvements have been slow, so a new
glider that isn't better, just cheaper, has to compete with equal performance,
even cheaper used gliders. This situation is quite different from the hang glider
market, where the gliders wear out much sooner, and the improvements
from year to year are much greater than they are for sailplanes. and the manufacturers aren't going to listen to any suggestion that maybe something more pedestrian
might sell. Just join a thread ripping apart the PW5 to see how
something 'more pedestrian' might sell. The PW5 actually has sold
OK, as did the Russia, and so that may be why we now have the Apis and Silent
(at least in part). Attitudes are slowly changing, and 'moderate'
performance is becoming more acceptable. The manufacturers would probably build more intermediate
gliders if the sport was growing fast enough to drive up the price
of the used gliders, thus making a new glider of similar performance profitable
enough to be worthwhile. -- ----- change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly Eric Greenwell Washington State USA

(Lennie the Lurker) wrote in message . com...

Look at the situation as it is, not as you want to
see it. Soaring doesn't need another $80k custom built hand made by
gnomes or trolls in der black forest, but anything that doesn't
measure up to some peoples wishes will be met with a blast of badmouth
right away. Almost every sailplane made today is made with the
competitor in mind, and the manufacturers aren't going to listen to
any suggestion that maybe something more pedestrian might sell. Which
suits the competitors quite well, and insures that the number of new
people will remain small, and declining.

Saying that people are "too lazy" to soar is like me saying soaring
people are too lazy to try metalworking. I just made a skid plate for
a 2-33 out of 1/4 inch AR plate, 3 1/2 hours pushing it through the
saw to cut to size. Call me lazy if you will, but I'd rather push the
steel than pay through the nose for what soaring costs, and it's just
as interesting.

While I think there are other causes for the decline of recreational
aviation in general, you have identified the real problem - Money. Or
more precisely the cost of having fun.

The hang glider population around my parts is zero now. 25 years ago
when it was new it grew fairly fast but as the state of the art
advanced from bamboo, tarps, and tape the cost of having fun slowly
went up. Those established in the sport could afford the evolution
and continued to have fun - and fly safer. But gradually the cost of
an "acceptable" entry level glider (and the associated accessories)
got to the point that the newcomers balked at the initial outlay of
cash and turned to other hobbies. A sad side to this story is that
there were actually lots of serviceable used gliders sitting unflown
in garages but I heard more than once, "You don't want that one. It's
old and doesn't fly as well as this newer one. If you really want to
have fun you need the better one. Sure it cost a bit more, but it's
worth it" It may have "been worth it", but it cost too much and the
former new glider pilot spent his money on a snowmobile, or a bike, or
a horse.

The original bunch gradually quit flying for one reason or another
until there are no folks jumping of the local hill. And as with lots
of hobbies a good bit of the attraction of the activity is not only
the activity but the socializing that goes along with friends mutually
enjoying their chosen sport. Flying is fun, but it's even better when
you can share the good times with a friend.

I'm interested in getting started in gliding and have my own unique
challenges to overcome. The general impression most of the people I
talk to have of gliding (power pilots or earth bound alike) is that
glider pilots are flying their gliders on the weekends there isn't a
polo match or a fox hunt. This isn't my impression but I do think
there is too much emphasis on competition and "performance" and not
enough on having fun. I get the feeling that if I show up somewhere
with a 4th hand Woodstock towed behind an old Jetta and step out on
the field dressed in Levi's and a T-shirt there will be a few pilots
quietly snickering in the background about my poor performing
hardware. Fortunately I'm the kind of guy that really doesn't care
what others think. I'm there to satisfy me, not the critics. But the
average Joe is very image conscious and doesn't like being the odd one
in the group. It's just another unfortunate result of living in an
image dominated society.

So in my opinion if you want gliding to grow you need to make it
conspicous, fun, comfortable, and at least as cheap to try other
hobbies. Take some lessons from the early hang gliders. Build a
primary glider, find a hill, invite the local kids and let them bounce
down the hill a few times...............

Those that like it may become regulars. But if they never try it, due
to negative preconceptions of the sport, how can they know?
===============================
Leon McAtee

writes:

I don't think I have ever known of even one new glider pilot to come to the
sport through the SSA.

I became an active pilot after my wife (girlfriend at the time) gave my an SSA
membership for my birthday.

Steve
OK, so I was flying hang gliders at the time and sometimes bought Soaring at
the newsstand. (You can't do that anymore.)