Best Path to Race

On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 21:12:23 -0800 (PST), Bruce Hoult
wrote:


If you're going to leave the flap lever locked (which I emphasise is not a good idea) then I'd suggest locking it in +1. Then the glider will work as designed for takeoff and thermalling. You'll lose performance in cruise of course, but that happens as soon as you ignore the minus settings anyway. Check the manual to see if this will reduce Vne or load factors (it probably won't).

Try that in an, let's say, ASW-20, and you won't even get off the
ground because you won't have any aileron authority at all as long as
the tail is on the ground.


But buying a flapped glider and then not using the flaps is worse in every way that just buying a non-flapped glider. Don't do it.

I still wonder why flaps are demonized that often - they are in no way
hard to operate or need special skills (nor do they separate the boys
from the men).

On the contrary, one might add that the later the ship, the easier and
less prone to error the flaps are to handle.

At 16:06 23 November 2017, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Thursday, November 23, 2017 at 6:12:09 PM UTC+3, Jeff Morgan
wrote:
The Standard vs. Flapped decision is a bit harder. All of the Sages
say
1=
5 meter (faster/safer), I'm leaning Standard (simplicity). But it's not
lik=
e I have Standard tattooed on my shoulder, or something I am going
to lose
=
sleep over. I'll reconsider how much "simpler" it really is. Perhaps it's
l=
ike driving a manual transmission where you don't even think about it
after=
the first day of ownership.

Exactly. Gliders vary so look in your handbook, but I'd say it's
generally
=
something like this:

L: Landing. Short final, definitely got the field made
+2: geez this core is narrow! Rack it in there!
+1: normal thermalling and aerotow
0: cruising, from min sink up to 15 or 20 knots above best L/D,
noodling
ar=
ound looking for lift
-1: normal fast inter-thermal cruise
-2: flat out between 100ish knots and Vne

It's pretty easy to use it exactly like a gear change, depending on what
fl=
ight mode you're in. Generally you lead with the flap, adjusting it for
the=
speed you want to go, not the speed you are going now.

On Friday, November 24, 2017 at 3:40:55 PM UTC-7, Andreas Maurer wrote:

I still wonder why flaps are demonized that often - they are in no way
hard to operate or need special skills (nor do they separate the boys
from the men).

On the contrary, one might add that the later the ship, the easier and
less prone to error the flaps are to handle.

Upon further reflection, my initial resistance to flaps doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. My other hobbies get me out into the back country of Arizona so I know that fields that appear to be flat are anything but smooth. Five knots lower approach speed is a lot less kinetic energy. A good thing (regardless of top end speed).

It has occurred to me that I should be looking at another factor more carefully: stability and ease of flying. My DG 100 was easy and fun. OTOH, the club's Standard Cirrus always needed attention and was much less fun to fly.

At work I have to learn whatever aircraft my employer uses. If I am going to spend $80K on a hobby, I don't want to feel like I am riding a razor blade (in terms of stability) every flight.

Certain Standard Class ships have great reputations this way. How about the top flapped ships, namely the Ventus 2 and ASW-27 for stability?

On Wednesday, 29 November 2017 07:06:43 UTC+2, Jeff Morgan wrote:
On Friday, November 24, 2017 at 3:40:55 PM UTC-7, Andreas Maurer wrote:

I still wonder why flaps are demonized that often - they are in no way
hard to operate or need special skills (nor do they separate the boys
from the men).

On the contrary, one might add that the later the ship, the easier and
less prone to error the flaps are to handle.

Upon further reflection, my initial resistance to flaps doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. My other hobbies get me out into the back country of Arizona so I know that fields that appear to be flat are anything but smooth. Five knots lower approach speed is a lot less kinetic energy. A good thing (regardless of top end speed).

It has occurred to me that I should be looking at another factor more carefully: stability and ease of flying. My DG 100 was easy and fun. OTOH, the club's Standard Cirrus always needed attention and was much less fun to fly.

At work I have to learn whatever aircraft my employer uses. If I am going to spend $80K on a hobby, I don't want to feel like I am riding a razor blade (in terms of stability) every flight.

Certain Standard Class ships have great reputations this way. How about the top flapped ships, namely the Ventus 2 and ASW-27 for stability?

All modern gliders are more stable than older gliders up to early 90's. V2, 27, D2, LS8 are all extremely pleasant to fly and as stable as gliders get (meaning mostly neutral stability, not stable in true sense). You will find no difference in stability between 15m and std. class gliders. Most pleasant (for me light, sensitive and effective controls with stability) glider I've flown is LS8 with 15m tips, Ventus-2 (15m) coming very close. Control harmony of std. class ship is theoretically better because you can optimize the tail for on wing configuration, but in 15m glider you have as many wings as you have flap settings and tail is compromise for everything. Flaps have other merits (acceleration, lower min. speed).

On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 12:10:02 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:

All modern gliders are more stable than older gliders up to early 90's. V2, 27, D2, LS8 are all extremely pleasant to fly and as stable as gliders get (meaning mostly neutral stability, not stable in true sense). You will find no difference in stability between 15m and std. class gliders. Most pleasant (for me light, sensitive and effective controls with stability) glider I've flown is LS8 with 15m tips, Ventus-2 (15m) coming very close. Control harmony of std. class ship is theoretically better because you can optimize the tail for on wing configuration, but in 15m glider you have as many wings as you have flap settings and tail is compromise for everything. Flaps have other merits (acceleration, lower min. speed).

Thanks. Trying to do my due diligence on this and saw some old posts on the Ventus A and B models being somewhat twitchy with the C models being a lot better. It was not immediately apparent to me that they were talking about the original Ventus. The Ventus 2 seems to be a different animal.

Well the deal is done, and so many of you offered helpful opinions I thought I should revive this old thread to close the loop.

Yesterday I completed a transaction on a low time Ventus 2B. One can read and research models for months, and I looked at a few that could have fit, but it just didn't click. When I saw this one I knew it immediately.

Everything was in excellent condition and the the panel about 99% of the way I would have done it from scratch. The seller was great to work with, basically did the deal on a handshake. An issue came up with an AD compliance item (known to both of us from the start) which delayed things for months as a custom part had to be made by S-H (which was unknown to us at the start). Additionally, I wanted to add a few items to the ship part of the sale, which the seller agreed to.

Getting ready for a contest this season seems to be a stretch, time will tell. XC flights (short triangles) will be happening by June certainly.

So, a big Thanks for all the advice in the thread.


On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 12:10:02 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:

All modern gliders are more stable than older gliders up to early 90's. V2, 27, D2, LS8 are all extremely pleasant to fly and as stable as gliders get (meaning mostly neutral stability, not stable in true sense). You will find no difference in stability between 15m and std. class gliders. Most pleasant (for me light, sensitive and effective controls with stability) glider I've flown is LS8 with 15m tips, Ventus-2 (15m) coming very close. Control harmony of std. class ship is theoretically better because you can optimize the tail for on wing configuration, but in 15m glider you have as many wings as you have flap settings and tail is compromise for everything. Flaps have other merits (acceleration, lower min. speed).

Well, congrats on the new family member.

Go have fun.
Ask questions as required.
Listen before shrugging info off.
Don't break the ship, thus, you should be fine (although the wallet may take a hit).
Keep in mind, every landing is practice for an off field landing. The better prepped you are, the less likely drama down the road.

congrats, and welcome!

definitely don't throw out the possibility of a regional next year if you become familiar with your new toy this year! if you're comfortable with thermalling, outlanding, and landing precision, then you're ready!

ND