Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:52:39 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Releasing is always an option.Â* I would rather land straight ahead,
maneuvering just enough to avoid any hard things on the ground than
stalling on tow.Â* That will kill you.Â* Taking off the wings between two
cars or tractors or whatever will dissipate most of the energy of the
crash and the insurance company can buy you a new glider. Not to mention
you might also kill the tuggie by hanging on in a losing situation.

On 8/7/2018 8:45 AM, Steve Koerner wrote:
This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.

I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.

Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71



--
Dan, 5J

Dan: You're not fully understanding the situation. If your nose is pointed at the sky and you are at a very low altitude, then you will die or be seriously injured if you pull the release. So this discussion is about trying to make sure this doesn't happen to others. I had to figure this out for myself back before there was RAS. If you have altitude to recover, then of course, pull the release and land. Better yet, make sure your tow pilot knows to keep the speed up.

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:45:24 AM UTC-7, Steve Koerner wrote:
This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing.. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.

I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.

Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot.. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71

Where to start. Believe it or not some places do not have comms with the tow plane other than hand signals. I believe the first place is to properly train tow pilots. A couple years ago at Nephi I had a tug where the pilot basically did a short field takeoff and started to climb! I was screaming at him to stay in ground effect as I had not even lifted off!! On the same tow I got into an argument with the pilot when I asked for another ten knots! "do you really want me to add ten knots".."Yes, for fu@ksakes". Years ago at my home airport we had a spat of extremely poorly trained tow pilots, fortunately now all of them are very well trained. As for written instructions, great idea, but I have yet to have a tow pilot actually read or follow the tow chit, other where I wanted to be released. ON my first tow out of Truckee, I filled out their tow chit and since I had not flown there before I checked the box for no thermaling on tow. I have about 1700 hours of glider time, I have never seen a tow plane bank it up 50 degrees to thermal at 800 feet, we played a game of crack the whip until I could dig the boom mike out from under my arm pit.

Steve, you're right.Â* I was considering enough altitude to stuff the
nose down and recover.

On 8/7/2018 9:08 AM, Steve Koerner wrote:
On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:52:39 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Releasing is always an option.Â* I would rather land straight ahead,
maneuvering just enough to avoid any hard things on the ground than
stalling on tow.Â* That will kill you.Â* Taking off the wings between two
cars or tractors or whatever will dissipate most of the energy of the
crash and the insurance company can buy you a new glider. Not to mention
you might also kill the tuggie by hanging on in a losing situation.

On 8/7/2018 8:45 AM, Steve Koerner wrote:
This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.

I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.

Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71


--
Dan, 5J
Dan: You're not fully understanding the situation. If your nose is pointed at the sky and you are at a very low altitude, then you will die or be seriously injured if you pull the release. So this discussion is about trying to make sure this doesn't happen to others. I had to figure this out for myself back before there was RAS. If you have altitude to recover, then of course, pull the release and land. Better yet, make sure your tow pilot knows to keep the speed up.

--
Dan, 5J

On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 10:49:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Have there been stall spins during an aero tow?

Yes, and fatalities.
Safety brief from minute 14 of this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIZW...TSR0IGIvNSG84Q

I think I forgot in this brief:
If the tow-plane starts to kite up as you are still rolling or just off,
RELEASE IMMEDIATELY.

Be safe out there,
Best Regards, Dave

At 02:49 06 August 2018, wrote:
Have there been stall spins during an aero tow?


An internet search for JA21KAJA2376 should find a Japan Transport
Safety Board report of a 2012 accident where an SF25C was towing a
Discus and the combination ditched into the river next to the airfield.
The report concludes that the Discus stalled on tow.

How come nobody mentions positive faps in this discussion? Am I missing sth? Are they useless in situations when the tug is too slow? If so, why? Please illuminate me.

A bit helps, a lot of flaps also adds drag, not exactly what you want......so, balancing act.

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:16:30 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
A bit helps, a lot of flaps also adds drag, not exactly what you want......so, balancing act.

@tombravomike. Many gliders have no flaps. They are great - if you have them. Many do not. The Std Cirrus - which this thread started with - does not.

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:01:38 PM UTC-4, Tom BravoMike wrote:
How come nobody mentions positive faps in this discussion?
Am I missing sth? Are they useless in situations when the tug is too slow?
If so, why? Please illuminate me.

Flaps add a lot of drag. The first time I had a stall on tow,
I pulled down landing flaps, which recovered the stall and
almost put the towplane in the trees. I eased off the flap
and somehow he sped up without hitting anything.
Please do not try this at home.

Be safe out there,
Best Regards, Dave

PS: I think flaps do have the benefit of improving the lift
distribution on tow, which slightly compensates for the bad effects.

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 8:42:40 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:01:38 PM UTC-4, Tom BravoMike wrote:
How come nobody mentions positive faps in this discussion?
Am I missing sth? Are they useless in situations when the tug is too slow?
If so, why? Please illuminate me.

Flaps add a lot of drag. The first time I had a stall on tow,
I pulled down landing flaps, which recovered the stall and
almost put the towplane in the trees. I eased off the flap
and somehow he sped up without hitting anything.
Please do not try this at home.

Be safe out there,
Best Regards, Dave

PS: I think flaps do have the benefit of improving the lift
distribution on tow, which slightly compensates for the bad effects.

OK, so we are talking here 'nothing or everything'. Landing flaps are on the extreme end. The Ventus manual tells you to go from '0' to '+1' on take off if necessary (eg. with water). And yes, it does depend how much extra power the tow plane has. The golden middle rule applies...