Why does the Sporting code require "Goal" to be a finish point???

OH, gee, Eric, I know we have to get down to brass tacks when we
disagree. I always learn something when you have lively discussions
with any of us.

My replies follow in context below.

Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...
John Gilbert wrote:

The (USA) State record rules say "Except as provided by these rules,
State Records shall comply with the FAI Sporting Code, Section 3
("SC3") and to the additional requirements of Section 6.0 below."

Even though they "must comply with the Sporting Code", the rules are not
part of the Sporting Code. State records are operated independent of the
FAI system, and simply copy the rules.

Agreed, my point exactly. One must follow the Sporting Code rules.


In the Sporting Code Section 3, Chapter 4.2.2 Declaration Validity,
paragraph a. "The last declaration made before takeoff is the only one
valid for the flight, but a concurrently flown and different
competition task is allowed."

I think you have to read these context: these rules apply to FAI flight
achievements, not SSA records, which are not part of the FAI system.

Ah, I read this literally. "The last declaration made before takeoff
is the only one valid for the flight, ..."

One declaration per flight. Not one declaration per organization. Not
one declaration per rule making body.


So I don't see any way that more than one (valid) declaration can
exist for a flight AND still comply with the Sporting Code.

I agree with that you that Sporting Code allows only one valid
declaration for a Badge or World Record flight. This is to prevent the
pilot from choosing declaration in or after flight. But why can't you
have another declaration for another set of rules by a different
organization? This declaration would not be valid for FAI badge or World
record claims - no question about that -but it would/should be valid for
a USA state record claim. Because the SSA State rules only allow one
valid declaration, the declaration for the FAI badges, etc., would not
be valid for the State Record attempt.

These are separate sets of rules, and even though the SSA State record
rules reference the FAI rules, they are NOT FAI rules!

True, but if the FAI rules say one declaration per flight, then that
is it.


Either
the one in the flight recorder is the last one made, or the paper one
is the last one made. Maybe you can talk an OO into verifying a flight
with two "valid" declarations, but I think it is not in the intention
of the rules to do so. It ain't, well, sporting.

The OO is not being asked to verify a claim with two "valid"
declarations, he just observes the flight and attests to the correctness
of the procedures and documentation. The FAI badge claim, with

The procedure is to have one declaration for the flight, as I read it.

supporting documentation (including the declaration made for the FAI),
is sent to the FAI Award representative (Judy Ruprecht currently) for
the USA. She evaluates the claim.

The SSA State record claim, with it's supporting documentation
(including the declaration made for the SSA), is sent to the SSA record
keeper for the State, who evaluates the claim for the State.

The intent of the FAI rules is to have one declaration, and only one,
apply to the Badge/world record claim, and that would be achieved; ditto
for the SSA record claim. The pilot would not be allowed to pick which
declaration went with which claim after the flight.

Only starting and finish points, and turnpoints, are required on a
declaration.
There seems to be no requirement to declare what attempt is being
made. There is no place in my flight recorder to say what performance
is to be claimed. How can an OO know which declaration went with which
claim after the flight?


I see nothing unsporting about following the rules. The claim for a
badge/world record is not affected in any way by a concurrent claim for
an SSA state record. No matter what was on each declaration, it would
not have the slightest impact on the claim supported by the other
declaration.

Concurrent claims are not the issue. FAI and national and (in US)
state claims all can be made on one declaration and its corresponding
flight. And free distance claims can be made on declared flights with
declared performance.

I have no doubt that SSA rules could allow a separate declaration for
a different declared performance, and as you describe, would not
conflict with the FAI rules. But I don't see any such exception.
Apparently, neither did Judy, after reading her previous email.


Since it seems like this has not come up before, I doubt that there is
any precedence, so it would be wise to discuss this with Judy R and your
state record keeper before trying it. My opinion may not sway the people
that have to evaluate your claim!

Well, I really think that you got your answer. If Judy R sees two
different claims coming in from the same person/same flight she is
going to see if there were two declarations. The big question is,
which claim will not be validated? I think it will be the one that
goes with the declaration with the earlier time (stamp).

Regards,
John

In the case of the Colibri, the declaration is made
automatically when logging starts, which is when you
reach forty knots or so on the takeoff roll. A little
hard to make [and photograph ?] a paper declaration
after that..?

Ian




At 07:48 15 October 2004, John Gilbert wrote:

In the Sporting Code Section 3, Chapter 4.2.2 Declaration
Validity,
paragraph a. 'The last declaration made before takeoff
is the only one
valid for the flight, but a concurrently flown and
different
competition task is allowed.'

So I don't see any way that more than one (valid) declaration
can
exist for a flight AND still comply with the Sporting
Code. Either
the one in the flight recorder is the last one made,
or the paper one
is the last one made. Maybe you can talk an OO into
verifying a flight
with two 'valid' declarations, but I think it is not
in the intention
of the rules to do so. It ain't, well, sporting.

Regards,
John

PS Volkslogger (and other?) flight recorder owners
need to be aware
that the Volkslogger will automatically declare the
most recently
stored declaration before each following flight, when
power is turned
on. If you declare on paper, then climb in the glider
and take off,
the last valid declaration will be in the flight recorder.
You need to
declare on paper, after you power up the Volkslogger.

Todd,
You are absolutely correct that the pilot,
not the instrument, makes the declaration. Nevertheless,
'electronic declarations' do exist and are accepted
by the FAI. And the content of a full declaration
includes the date of flight, not just the date at which
the pilot defined the task. Quoting from my Colibri
manual 'the selected task is automatically declared
after takeoff'. This declaration, even though it is
implemented by the instrument, is acceptable for FAI
purposes. So if it exists, it is the latest declaration.
Agreed, the pilot may make paper declarations after
entering the FR task but before the flight, but if
he wants to make the paper declaration valid it is
his responsibility to deselect or disable the electronic
one prior to takeoff. And since the FR data is required
to document the flight, it is hard to pretend that
any associated electronic declaration does not exist.

I guess that if someone really wanted to flex the
spirit of the rules, he could carry a sheaf of paper
declarations and have several FRs running, then decide
after takeoff which one he wanted to use today - then
the latest declaration would be the one in the pilot's
head as he started his task, or maybe what he recalled
postflight as his last pre-start intention ??

Soaring season must be winding down.

Ian




At 23:06 15 October 2004, Todd Pattist wrote:
Ian Cant wrote:

In the case of the Colibri, the declaration is made
automatically when logging starts, which is when you
reach forty knots or so on the takeoff roll. A little
hard to make [and photograph ?] a paper declaration
after that..?
Ian

Only a pilot can make a declaration, not a Colibri.
The
declaration was made when the pilot entered data into
the
Colibri. That declaration could be superseded by a
subsequent paper or electronic declaration, regardless
of
what the Colibri does at 'forty knots or so on the
takeoff
roll.' :-)
Todd Pattist - 'WH' Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

From the FAI perspective, the date/time of an electronic declaration is
that contained in columns 2-13 of the first C record line in the IGC
file. That date/time is determined when the declaration is first
entered into the unit, not at takeoff. If a paper declaration is made
at a later time, then it overrides the electronic declaration. It is up
to the official observer to certify that the pilot has provided a paper
declaration which is dated after the electronic declaration contained in
the IGC file.

Speaking with my GFAC hat on,
Marc

Ian Cant wrote:
Todd,
You are absolutely correct that the pilot,
not the instrument, makes the declaration. Nevertheless,
'electronic declarations' do exist and are accepted
by the FAI. And the content of a full declaration
includes the date of flight, not just the date at which
the pilot defined the task. Quoting from my Colibri
manual 'the selected task is automatically declared
after takeoff'. This declaration, even though it is
implemented by the instrument, is acceptable for FAI
purposes. So if it exists, it is the latest declaration.
Agreed, the pilot may make paper declarations after
entering the FR task but before the flight, but if
he wants to make the paper declaration valid it is
his responsibility to deselect or disable the electronic
one prior to takeoff. And since the FR data is required
to document the flight, it is hard to pretend that
any associated electronic declaration does not exist.

I guess that if someone really wanted to flex the
spirit of the rules, he could carry a sheaf of paper
declarations and have several FRs running, then decide
after takeoff which one he wanted to use today - then
the latest declaration would be the one in the pilot's
head as he started his task, or maybe what he recalled
postflight as his last pre-start intention ??

Soaring season must be winding down.

In article , Ian Cant
wrote:

Todd,
snip

I guess that if someone really wanted to flex the
spirit of the rules, he could carry a sheaf of paper
declarations and have several FRs running, then decide
after takeoff which one he wanted to use today - then
the latest declaration would be the one in the pilot's
head as he started his task, or maybe what he recalled
postflight as his last pre-start intention ??

Soaring season must be winding down.

The new Code has amended the FR procedures so that a pilot can't
"cherry-pick" from more than one FR containing different declarations.
Now, the IGC file of ALL FRs on board must be submitted with a
badge/record claim. para 4.6.4b

The Code has also been changed (para 1.4.3 and new para 3.0.2b) to limit
the number of distance records claimed in one flight - in particular, you
can no longer claim a declared record course and tack on the free distance
record. The philosophy of the change is that a record, in part, ought to
be honoured for its rarity and performance - getting a free record for
free, so to speak, goes against that.

--
Tony Burton

Marc,
I happily defer to your knowledge, but let
me ask this question. Let's say for some reason I
had stored in the FR three different declarations made
on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. If I fly on Saturday
with the Monday declaration selected, that is an accepted
valid declaration [I really hope I am correct in that
assertion at least]. Now let's say I also have on
board a paper declaration made on Tuesday evening.
Does that override all the electronic declarations,
or only the ones made on Monday and earlier on Tuesday
? Or does the electronic Wednesday version count as
'latest' even though not selected at flight time ?


Your answer makes it clear that the paper version overrrides
provided that the OO is aware of the existence of both
versions.
What if the pilot retrospectively decides he preferred
one of the electronic versions ? He says to OO, 'the
FR used my Monday declaration, but I intended to fly
the later Wednesday one' ? If the OO can adjudicate
that paper on Tuesday beats the stored FR from Monday,
can he not reasonably also adjudicate that electronic
stored Wednesday beats both of the above ?

Just asking, I'm happy to live with the rules 'as-interpreted'.

Ian




At 04:24 16 October 2004, Marc Ramsey wrote:
From the FAI perspective, the date/time of an electronic
declaration is
that contained in columns 2-13 of the first C record
line in the IGC
file. That date/time is determined when the declaration
is first
entered into the unit, not at takeoff. If a paper
declaration is made
at a later time, then it overrides the electronic declaration.
It is up
to the official observer to certify that the pilot
has provided a paper
declaration which is dated after the electronic declaration
contained in
the IGC file.

Speaking with my GFAC hat on,
Marc

Ian Cant wrote:
Todd,
You are absolutely correct that the pilot,
not the instrument, makes the declaration. Nevertheless,
'electronic declarations' do exist and are accepted
by the FAI. And the content of a full declaration
includes the date of flight, not just the date at
which
the pilot defined the task. Quoting from my Colibri
manual 'the selected task is automatically declared
after takeoff'. This declaration, even though it
is
implemented by the instrument, is acceptable for
FAI
purposes. So if it exists, it is the latest declaration.
Agreed, the pilot may make paper declarations after
entering the FR task but before the flight, but if
he wants to make the paper declaration valid it is
his responsibility to deselect or disable the electronic
one prior to takeoff. And since the FR data is required
to document the flight, it is hard to pretend that
any associated electronic declaration does not exist.

I guess that if someone really wanted to flex the
spirit of the rules, he could carry a sheaf of paper
declarations and have several FRs running, then decide
after takeoff which one he wanted to use today - then
the latest declaration would be the one in the pilot's
head as he started his task, or maybe what he recalled
postflight as his last pre-start intention ??

Soaring season must be winding down.

Ian Cant wrote:
Marc,
I happily defer to your knowledge, but let
me ask this question. Let's say for some reason I
had stored in the FR three different declarations made
on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. If I fly on Saturday
with the Monday declaration selected, that is an accepted
valid declaration [I really hope I am correct in that
assertion at least].

As "stephanevdv" stated, there is one (or no) valid electronic
declaration at any given time. Whatever task was the last declared
prior to takeoff is the one that applies.

Now let's say I also have on
board a paper declaration made on Tuesday evening.
Does that override all the electronic declarations,
or only the ones made on Monday and earlier on Tuesday
? Or does the electronic Wednesday version count as
'latest' even though not selected at flight time ?

SC3 Section 4.2.2a makes it quite clear that the last declaration made
before takeoff is the only valid one. So, if you make an electronic
declaration after a paper declaration signed and dated by the OO, the
electronic declaration applies.

Your answer makes it clear that the paper version overrrides
provided that the OO is aware of the existence of both
versions.

What if the pilot retrospectively decides he preferred
one of the electronic versions ? He says to OO, 'the
FR used my Monday declaration, but I intended to fly
the later Wednesday one' ? If the OO can adjudicate
that paper on Tuesday beats the stored FR from Monday,
can he not reasonably also adjudicate that electronic
stored Wednesday beats both of the above ?


The OO must be aware of the paper declaration, as the OO must sign and
date it. If it is not signed and dated by the OO, it is not a
declaration. The OO will be aware of the electronic declaration, as the
OO is required to review the IGC file after the flight. The OO must use
the last made declaration, whether paper or electronic.

Marc