Aerotow with Diesel engine?

I don't disagree on the issue of winch launching being the cheapest cost
offset for the invested dollar...Even with the argument that Diesel fuel
cost by 1/3 an average tow only uses around 2 gallons of gasoline so we're
talking about a savings of around 2/3rds of a gallon or roughly $ 1.61 if
you're paying at the pump for your diesel maybe a bit more if you're buying
and storing bulk, which isn't figuring in the cost of "Prist" which if any
of you have operated Turbines, know is a necessity for long term storage of
the fuel...the savings from the cost of fuel I'd say is truly almost nil.

This of course isn't again pointing out that in order to save this $1.61 per
tow, we'd have to guy spend presumably a hundred grand...the SMA diesel
which is approved for STC on the 180 is $97,000 installed...

I just don't see any viability to the thought process at this time. I like
the idea of Michael Zoche's radial diesel...but it's been years in
development and doesn't look even cose to certification. Thielert's engine
look great but again, since it doesn't go on a Pawnee or a Super Cub or a
Husky, or anything at this point...what really is the point??

How much does a really nice Winch cost?? And where do you buy one, and how
much real estate do you need to get a 1500 ft agl launch??


I'd really like to see what the actual costs are for a club to purchase a
good winch.



Steve.

"Steve Hill" wrote in message
...

How much does a really nice Winch cost?? And where do you buy one, and how
much real estate do you need to get a 1500 ft agl launch??


I'd really like to see what the actual costs are for a club to purchase a
good winch.



Steve.

Used Tost winches are going for $3500 in Germany. I have no idea what the
shipping would be.

4000 feet of runway will get you 1500 feet AGL. With lightweight synthetic
cable and a little wind, you can get higher. More runway will get you still
higher.

If you do a spreadsheet of costs and revenue, you find that even an
expensive winch pays for itself in a very short time. Thereafter, it is a
"money printing machine" that will fund a new glider every year or so.
Figure a cost of $2 per launch and charge $6 to $10.

There's a lot of good information at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchdesign/

Bill Daniels

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news:wD8gd.22588$R05.18302@attbi_s53...

"Steve Hill" wrote in message
...

How much does a really nice Winch cost?? And where do you buy one, and
how
much real estate do you need to get a 1500 ft agl launch??


I'd really like to see what the actual costs are for a club to purchase
a
good winch.



Steve.

Used Tost winches are going for $3500 in Germany. I have no idea what the
shipping would be.

4000 feet of runway will get you 1500 feet AGL. With lightweight
synthetic
cable and a little wind, you can get higher. More runway will get you
still
higher.

If you do a spreadsheet of costs and revenue, you find that even an
expensive winch pays for itself in a very short time. Thereafter, it is a
"money printing machine" that will fund a new glider every year or so.
Figure a cost of $2 per launch and charge $6 to $10.

There's a lot of good information at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchdesign/

Bill Daniels

This, of course, begs certain assumptions on the size of the operation,
available gliders, ability to scale the operation, and soaring conditions
(good soaring may mean many less launches, training is higly encouraged).
There is one case that indicates that the economics will help drive the size
also. ROI may be somewhat unpredictable. With a winch you may be able to
operate in places where aerotowing might be highly objectionable.

Frank Whiteley

Our winch operates off 3000ft uses ordinary polyprop rope and regularly gets
1400-1500ft launches.
gary
"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news:wD8gd.22588$R05.18302@attbi_s53...

"Steve Hill" wrote in message
...

How much does a really nice Winch cost?? And where do you buy one, and
how
much real estate do you need to get a 1500 ft agl launch??


I'd really like to see what the actual costs are for a club to purchase a
good winch.



Steve.

Used Tost winches are going for $3500 in Germany. I have no idea what the
shipping would be.

4000 feet of runway will get you 1500 feet AGL. With lightweight
synthetic
cable and a little wind, you can get higher. More runway will get you
still
higher.

If you do a spreadsheet of costs and revenue, you find that even an
expensive winch pays for itself in a very short time. Thereafter, it is a
"money printing machine" that will fund a new glider every year or so.
Figure a cost of $2 per launch and charge $6 to $10.

There's a lot of good information at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchdesign/

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:


I don't disagree about motorgliders but there will always be a lot of pure
gliders around that need launching. Diesels will produce the same power on
roughly 1/3 less fuel and that fuel could be un-taxed agri-diesel in the
case of a warm weather glider tug. That would be a large but not
overwhelming savings. If diesels get as popular as most aviation experts
suggest, the availability of avgas and spark ignition engine parts and
repair may eventually be a greater concern.

A typical 180 HP Lycoming O-360 will burn $60,000 worth of avgas to get it
to a 2000 Hr TBO. A 260 HP Lyc O-540 will burn close to $100,000 worth of
avgas in 2000 hours. Engine overhauls are also a big cost but less per hour
than fuel. Any way you look at it, a tow plane is a black hole sucking in
money.

If you really want to save fuel, think winch launch. That takes about 1/2
liter of diesel to launch a typical glider. That could easily be vegetable
oil. If you are lucky enough to be able to use an electric winch, a launch
will use about 1KW Hr. of energy at about $.05. Add to the fuel savings the
fact that you don't have to deal with the FAA trying to get a Tost hook
installed on a Pawnee.

Oh now, you had to rub that in didn't you.
;-)

Shawn

Steve Hill wrote:

I'd really like to see what the actual costs are for a club to purchase a
good winch.

The "street" has spoken. There are NO winches in California.
And the ones I researched that were closest were in Arizona or
Washington, and aren't getting anywhere even remotely close to
50 launches a day.

I haven't been to Washington yet, but I have talked to the club there
and they were closed for a good part of last winter (0 launches).

Would a winch in CA do well? I dunno. At Avenal, there are
days when it would be fine, but then again there are
a lot of days or times of the day when a higher tow or further
away is better. And of course I've had 4 aero-retrieves.
Try that with a winch
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:41818652$1@darkstar...
Steve Hill wrote:

I'd really like to see what the actual costs are for a club to purchase a
good winch.

The "street" has spoken. There are NO winches in California.

I think you overlooked AGCSC who operates their winch at Torry Pines and
Warner Springs.

And the ones I researched that were closest were in Arizona or
Washington, and aren't getting anywhere even remotely close to
50 launches a day.

I've done many 50+ launch days. If our European friends check in, I'll bet
they report a lot more than that.


I haven't been to Washington yet, but I have talked to the club there
and they were closed for a good part of last winter (0 launches).

Would a winch in CA do well? I dunno. At Avenal, there are
days when it would be fine, but then again there are
a lot of days or times of the day when a higher tow or further
away is better. And of course I've had 4 aero-retrieves.
Try that with a winch
--
Four aero retrieves! What you flyin' boy, a 1-26?

Bill Daniels

In article rLfgd.540846$8_6.36371@attbi_s04,
Bill Daniels wrote:

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:41818652$1@darkstar...
Steve Hill wrote:

The "street" has spoken. There are NO winches in California.

I think you overlooked AGCSC who operates their winch at Torry Pines and
Warner Springs.

I had thought AGCSC was only auto-tow for ground launch.
I will look into the winch there; thanks for the correction, Bill.

And the ones I researched that were closest were in Arizona or
Washington, and aren't getting anywhere even remotely close to
50 launches a day.

I've done many 50+ launch days. If our European friends check in, I'll bet
they report a lot more than that.

I suspect the density of population in Europe and the relatively
prohibitive comparable cost of aerotow make winches what they are
in Europe. A U.S. winch (esp. a very expensive/nice one) would likely
do best near a very large population and regular ridge/wave lift.

I'm not aware of something like this which is away from (and not under)
"B" and "C" airspace. A winch right in LA, Reno, or SF would be great,
but I'd bet the Federales would notam out the operation pronto.

Such an operation would likely need to be a private club, too.
I just can't see a club buying up the $$$$s worth of acres to
get this working near a major CA city...

I haven't been to Washington yet, but I have talked to the club there
and they were closed for a good part of last winter (0 launches).

Would a winch in CA do well? I dunno. At Avenal, there are
days when it would be fine, but then again there are
a lot of days or times of the day when a higher tow or further
away is better. And of course I've had 4 aero-retrieves.
Try that with a winch
--

Four aero retrieves! What you flyin' boy, a 1-26?
That's right, sonny. ;P

Bill Daniels
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:41818c33$1@darkstar...
In article rLfgd.540846$8_6.36371@attbi_s04,

I suspect the density of population in Europe and the relatively
prohibitive comparable cost of aerotow make winches what they are
in Europe. A U.S. winch (esp. a very expensive/nice one) would likely
do best near a very large population and regular ridge/wave lift.

The European population density makes it harder to find the room for glider
strips. We, on the other hand, still have lots of open space by comparison.
A local ridge is nice but there are lots of places where thermal lift can be
contacted well under 1000 feet AGL.

I'm not aware of something like this which is away from (and not under)
"B" and "C" airspace. A winch right in LA, Reno, or SF would be great,
but I'd bet the Federales would notam out the operation pronto.

I'm not aware of one either but I'm working on it.


Such an operation would likely need to be a private club, too.
I just can't see a club buying up the $$$$s worth of acres to
get this working near a major CA city...

Not near a city but dry land in the desert isn't too bad. There are lots of
lonely, low traffic county airports that woud be great for winch launchng

Bill Daniels

And the ones I researched that were closest were in Arizona or
Washington, and aren't getting anywhere even remotely close to
50 launches a day.

Well, a friend and I got about 25 launches in four hours. Take off, fly the
pattern, land on the cross wind, rotate the glider 90 degrees, and then off
again.

Of course, then you also have the esteemed contingent at my club who take off,
do a complete pattern landing back into the wind, and then have to push back to
the take off spot again. About half the efficiciency.

Best line ever after dropping off the 'chute and driving back to the winch for
the next go. "We're still figuring out who is going to fly next."

All depends on the efficiency of the operation. Slow cycle time is zero fun.

Jim Vincent
N483SZ
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