4-seater

U¿ytkownik "goneill" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Not an urban legend at all ,goto the Lak factory site and you will see
pictures of one built to test wing sections mounted between the two
fuselages .

Just like the SZD I have mentioned earlier.

JK

A usable 4-seat ride glider would have to be engineered from a clean sheet
of paper. It would have to be rugged enough to survive years of stuffing
members of the general public into the seats.

Since it would be large, it would have to remain assembled which likely
means tied outside. I would insist on soft, shock absorbing landing gear.
A self launcher would make good sense in this role.

A 25 meter span would provide very good performance while introducing a lot
of people to soaring and making money for the business providing the rides.
I hope DG keeps thinking along these lines.

Bill Daniels


"goneill" wrote in message
...
The idea of a joyride machine with multiple places was discussed
at our club a year back and some design ideas tossed around ,
the concensus was something like the DG505 wings attached to a
light tube and fabric fuse with either a triangle seat pattern or a
4 seater star pattern.
This concept was emailed to the owner of DG and the answer came back
that DG had discussed this very idea for a limited production run
but the engineering loads on the fuselage wing junction were very
high and would take a lot of redesigning to get it to work and secondly
the DG505 wingset were simply not strong enough to take those loads.
A Nimbus4D or an ASH25 wingset maybe?
gary
"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news:wy0pd.141192$HA.53129@attbi_s01...
I recall a recent discussion about the desirability of a 4-place glider
for
the ride business. The subject came up after stuffing two not so
smallish
people into the back seat of a 2-32 and sending them on a ride over the
Rockies.

The majority view was that the probability of one of the three paying
passengers getting airsick and ruining it for the other two was just too
high. I'm not too sure about that. A 4-place, 25 meter span ride
glider
might be a money maker.

Bill Daniels

"Bert Willing" wrote in
message ...
Urban legend ?

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"cernauta" a écrit dans le message de
news: ...
(Nyal Williams) wrote:

A friend keeps insisting that a 4-place glider was built at one time.
Can anyone verify, identify, or point to a picture?

Somebody built a 4 place glider with twin fuselages. It was based on
Blanik parts. A center section, two outside wings, two fuselages and
tails.
I believe it was built by a German Blanik repair station.

Aldo Cernezzi

Such a Blanik was built in Lithuania by the current LAK factory for
airfoil testing. I have photos of it (not digital). There is a copy of
it in the Swedish book "Segelflyg" (written by me and a good friend). It
is a 600 page book on gliding for student pilots, unfortunately in Swedish.

I have seen photos of a real 4 place sailplane, but I need a good malt
and some good music to help remember where I have seen those photos.

Robert

cernauta wrote:
(Nyal Williams) wrote:


A friend keeps insisting that a 4-place glider was built at one time.
Can anyone verify, identify, or point to a picture?


Somebody built a 4 place glider with twin fuselages. It was based on
Blanik parts. A center section, two outside wings, two fuselages and
tails.
I believe it was built by a German Blanik repair station.

Aldo Cernezzi

If you're designing your own fuselage.....an ASH25/Nimbus/DG
biplane perhaps?

Be worth a trip down under just to see it.

If you put quad controls in it could be even more fun
- instructor says 'you have control...not you...you...no
you..'

Ed.

At 20:48 24 November 2004, Goneill wrote:
The idea of a joyride machine with multiple places
was discussed
at our club a year back and some design ideas tossed
around ,
the concensus was something like the DG505 wings attached
to a
light tube and fabric fuse with either a triangle seat
pattern or a
4 seater star pattern.
This concept was emailed to the owner of DG and the
answer came back
that DG had discussed this very idea for a limited
production run
but the engineering loads on the fuselage wing junction
were very
high and would take a lot of redesigning to get it
to work and secondly
the DG505 wingset were simply not strong enough to
take those loads.
A Nimbus4D or an ASH25 wingset maybe?
gary

cernauta wrote in message . ..
"Vaughn Simon" wrote:


Apparently not. I found a picture of it on the net at :
http://users.skynet.be/nestofdragons/weird_09.htm

Thank you, great page!

Aldo Cernezzi

I don't believe that Super Cub (not a J-3). There is no way to get
into the one on the left without switching the doors to the left side.
That means moving all the stuff on the left sidewall to the right
sidewall (What is there on this wall; I have forgot; trim? throttle?
what else?

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:38:44 UTC, "Janusz Kesik"
wrote:

: Not at all. There was an SZD design which consisted of two SZD-9 Bocian
: fuselages, each with left or right wing appropriatly, and the 'mid-section'
: between the fuselages where the tested airfoils were used.

Sounds a wee bit like the Slingsby type 27, though that was a two
seater and was never fabric covered or flown. Still managed to get
called "The Black Widow" ...

Ian

--

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message news:WH4pd.141880$HA.27666@attbi_s01...
A usable 4-seat ride glider would have to be engineered from a clean sheet
of paper. It would have to be rugged enough to survive years of stuffing
members of the general public into the seats.

Since it would be large, it would have to remain assembled which likely
means tied outside. I would insist on soft, shock absorbing landing gear.
A self launcher would make good sense in this role.

A 25 meter span would provide very good performance while introducing a lot
of people to soaring and making money for the business providing the rides.
I hope DG keeps thinking along these lines.

Bill Daniels


"goneill" wrote in message
...
The idea of a joyride machine with multiple places was discussed
at our club a year back and some design ideas tossed around ,
the concensus was something like the DG505 wings attached to a
light tube and fabric fuse with either a triangle seat pattern or a
4 seater star pattern.
This concept was emailed to the owner of DG and the answer came back
that DG had discussed this very idea for a limited production run
but the engineering loads on the fuselage wing junction were very
high and would take a lot of redesigning to get it to work and secondly
the DG505 wingset were simply not strong enough to take those loads.
A Nimbus4D or an ASH25 wingset maybe?
gary
"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news:wy0pd.141192$HA.53129@attbi_s01...
I recall a recent discussion about the desirability of a 4-place glider
for
the ride business. The subject came up after stuffing two not so
smallish
people into the back seat of a 2-32 and sending them on a ride over the
Rockies.

The majority view was that the probability of one of the three paying
passengers getting airsick and ruining it for the other two was just too
high. I'm not too sure about that. A 4-place, 25 meter span ride
glider
might be a money maker.

Bill Daniels

"Bert Willing" wrote in
message ...
Urban legend ?

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"cernauta" a écrit dans le message de
news: ...
(Nyal Williams) wrote:

A friend keeps insisting that a 4-place glider was built at one time.
Can anyone verify, identify, or point to a picture?

Somebody built a 4 place glider with twin fuselages. It was based on
Blanik parts. A center section, two outside wings, two fuselages and
tails.
I believe it was built by a German Blanik repair station.

Aldo Cernezzi







Hey, how about a Twin Schweizer 2-32! You could carry FIVE
passengers! And, if someone got airsick the ride wouldn't be spoiled
for everyone.

MM

Just some 'back of the envelope' calculations for a '2+2' seating glider.
(No controls in the back seats.)

Start with the need for 600 Kg cockpit payload. Assume that the best
composite materials and construction techniques are used. That would
suggest a GW of 1000 Kg. Further assume a 25 meter span and 30 Kg/sq. M
wing loading. That yields a wing area of 33.3 Sq. Meters and an aspect
ratio of 18.75. That gives good spar depth to carry the weight.

With retractable gear, flaps and winglets that would suggest ~45:1 L/D and a
min sink of about .55 M/Sec. If flown with a cockpit load of 300 Kg the min
sink would be less.

This is easily within the state-of-the-art. Every commercial ride operator
in the world would want one and so would some wealthy individuals and clubs.
Say, maybe a market for 300+ gliders?

Bill Daniels

"goneill" wrote in message
...
The idea of a joyride machine with multiple places was discussed
at our club a year back and some design ideas tossed around ,
the concensus was something like the DG505 wings attached to a
light tube and fabric fuse with either a triangle seat pattern or a
4 seater star pattern.
This concept was emailed to the owner of DG and the answer came back
that DG had discussed this very idea for a limited production run
but the engineering loads on the fuselage wing junction were very
high and would take a lot of redesigning to get it to work and secondly
the DG505 wingset were simply not strong enough to take those loads.
A Nimbus4D or an ASH25 wingset maybe?
gary
"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news:wy0pd.141192$HA.53129@attbi_s01...
I recall a recent discussion about the desirability of a 4-place glider
for
the ride business. The subject came up after stuffing two not so
smallish
people into the back seat of a 2-32 and sending them on a ride over the
Rockies.

The majority view was that the probability of one of the three paying
passengers getting airsick and ruining it for the other two was just too
high. I'm not too sure about that. A 4-place, 25 meter span ride
glider
might be a money maker.

Bill Daniels

"Bert Willing" wrote in
message ...
Urban legend ?

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"cernauta" a écrit dans le message de
news: ...
(Nyal Williams) wrote:

A friend keeps insisting that a 4-place glider was built at one time.
Can anyone verify, identify, or point to a picture?

Somebody built a 4 place glider with twin fuselages. It was based on
Blanik parts. A center section, two outside wings, two fuselages and
tails.
I believe it was built by a German Blanik repair station.

Aldo Cernezzi

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:54:52 GMT, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:

Start with the need for 600 Kg cockpit payload.

600?
Aren't 400 more appropriate?

Assume that the best
composite materials and construction techniques are used. That would
suggest a GW of 1000 Kg. Further assume a 25 meter span and 30 Kg/sq. M
wing loading. That yields a wing area of 33.3 Sq. Meters and an aspect
ratio of 18.75. That gives good spar depth to carry the weight.

With retractable gear, flaps and winglets that would suggest ~45:1 L/D and a
min sink of about .55 M/Sec. If flown with a cockpit load of 300 Kg the min
sink would be less.

L/D of 45:1 with such a low aspect ratio? Hardly...

This is easily within the state-of-the-art. Every commercial ride operator
in the world would want one and so would some wealthy individuals and clubs.
Say, maybe a market for 300+ gliders?



Cool idea. I like your 300+ number.
What are you going to use to tow this monster? A P-51 or an F4U?


I have another idea.
Take a proven self-launching glider with sufficient L/D (25 should be
sufficient for a glide) that already has a type-certificate and proven
to be able to perform a halfways safe landing with engine shut down
(Boeing 767, Airbus A 310, Airbus A 330, Space Shuttle), equip it with
a final glide computer (the Shuttle already has one), go to an
airfield with a runway of sufficient length, and you are able to give
several hundred passengers a glider ride. Not to forget the
stewardesses and the presence of a toilet.






Bye
Andreas

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:54:52 GMT, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:

Just some 'back of the envelope' calculations for a '2+2' seating glider.
(No controls in the back seats.)

Interesting...how did the ride operators who bought up the 2-32s do?
Haven't heard about them in years.

rj