Back to square one on buying an Arrow

"Nathan Young" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:38:12 -0800, Jack Allison
wrote:


If the seller seems odd about anything during the sale, that is good
reason to let it go.

Well from the seller's perspective the same goes. I've had good buyers
and bad ones. If a seller has a good plane you better make your decision
quick and follow through because often there's several buyers. I've sold
two planes in the last 5 years. Both were in great shape and low hours.
The first sold in a week. The buyers were great to work with. I didnt
ask for a down payment (never have). They had a local mechanic
do a prebuy .. came and got the plane and everything was cool.

The next was the buyer from Hell. I had several buyers lined up
prior to even deciding to sell based solely on a comment online
that I was contemplating a sale. (Very low time plane, fresh factory
reman, plane literaly like new.) I dealt with the buyers in the
order they contacted me. The guy brought a mechanic and
almost totally disassembled the plane. That's his choice. Played
games with me constantly. Had all the money and documentation
in escrow ready to pull the trigger .. and he was STILL jerking me
around trying to get the price reduced for this or that reason.
Two days after the closing was supposed to take place I finally
sent him an email that said he had two hours to close the deal
or the sale was off. He closed it immediately. Here I was trying to keep my
word with
him in spite of the fact that I had two other buyers that wanted
the plane immediately and would pay more, and he was playing
games with me.

If you have a good plane at a fair market price it WILL sell. My
advice for sellers is if you want to save a lot of grief .. don't deal with
inexperienced
buyers. They'll spare no effort in trying to get price reductions out
of you regardless of the condition of the plane. It's simply not
worth the stress. Deal with someone experienced and knowledgable about
aircraft values.

As a buyer .. if you're a new buyer then get some help from someone
who is knowledgable. Be prepared to pay what an aircraft of the
type your looking for is worth. Some savvy help will let you quickly
know if something is a good prospect or not. You're a lot better off
paying a little more for something that's in good shape and equiped
the way you want .. than buying a bargain and having to spend a
lot of money getting it up to snuff.

Interesting experiences Otis. Thanks for posting.

My
advice for sellers is if you want to save a lot of grief .. don't deal with
inexperienced
buyers. They'll spare no effort in trying to get price reductions out
of you regardless of the condition of the plane. It's simply not
worth the stress. Deal with someone experienced and knowledgable about
aircraft values.

I have to take some exception to a blanket statement here. Personally,
I'm an inexperienced buyer. There is airplane buying/selling experience
in our partnership but two of us have not bought a plane before. We're
not trying to reduce the price regardless of the condition. In this
last deal, we offered full asking price because it represented a fair
value for the plane.


As a buyer .. if you're a new buyer then get some help from someone
who is knowledgable. Be prepared to pay what an aircraft of the
type your looking for is worth. Some savvy help will let you quickly
know if something is a good prospect or not. You're a lot better off
paying a little more for something that's in good shape and equiped
the way you want .. than buying a bargain and having to spend a
lot of money getting it up to snuff.

Definitely agree here. IMHO, our partnership falls into this camp.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

If the seller seems odd about anything during the sale, that is good
reason to let it go.

Well from the seller's perspective the same goes. I've had good buyers
and bad ones.

I have a somewhat unique perspective here, as I have met both the potential
buyer (Jack) and the seller. (Last week I flew to Wisconsin to lend a
casual eye to the bird for Jack.)

In this case, I'd say both parties were "good", but distance and
circumstances conspired against the sale. IMHO, here's why:

1. Jack is 1500 miles away
2. The seller had a local buyer that was interested in the plane.
3. Jack understandably wanted a pre-buy inspection conducted at a "neutral"
location.
4. The seller was understandably wary of letting his prized Arrow be
dismantled by an unknown shop, especially in light of #2, above.
5. The seller made personal contact with the "neutral" shop that made him
even more uncomfortable.
6. The seller started to ponder the awful possibility that (a) the "neutral"
shop could tear his plane apart and find something wrong, which would (b)
cause his erstwhile potential buyers -- located inconveniently on the other
side of the continent -- to withdraw from the deal and (c) potentially leave
him to pay the "neutral" shop for the work, if Jack and his partners turned
out to be nefarious cretins.

All of these factors came into play -- most importantly #2. IMHO, without
#2 the seller might well have silently swallowed his worries, and gone
through with the deal.

But who knows? The whole experience can be frustrating, but in this case
it's probably all for the best that the deal fell apart.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

First off, my apoligies to Jack for any perceived offense about my
new buyer remark. Since he has experienced buyers involved as
partners it really doesn't apply to him and is simply based on my
experience.

Two of my previous sales were with buyers located far away. I simply
never let a plane I'm selling go somewhere else for the prebuy. That
eliminates the fear of the plane being taken apart and being held
hostage to an unscrupulous buyer controlled A/P. What I
do is make arrangements with my home shop to make available space
and any needed equipment (at my expense) in their shop. Then the
prebuy mechanic can come there and do the prebuy. And my
mechanic can deal with fixing anything they want fixed. I haven't had
any objections to this and it's worked well for all concerned.




"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:a6uYd.59212$r55.44222@attbi_s52...
If the seller seems odd about anything during the sale, that is good
reason to let it go.

Well from the seller's perspective the same goes. I've had good buyers
and bad ones.

I have a somewhat unique perspective here, as I have met both the
potential buyer (Jack) and the seller. (Last week I flew to Wisconsin to
lend a casual eye to the bird for Jack.)

In this case, I'd say both parties were "good", but distance and
circumstances conspired against the sale. IMHO, here's why:

1. Jack is 1500 miles away
2. The seller had a local buyer that was interested in the plane.
3. Jack understandably wanted a pre-buy inspection conducted at a
"neutral" location.
4. The seller was understandably wary of letting his prized Arrow be
dismantled by an unknown shop, especially in light of #2, above.
5. The seller made personal contact with the "neutral" shop that made him
even more uncomfortable.
6. The seller started to ponder the awful possibility that (a) the
"neutral" shop could tear his plane apart and find something wrong, which
would (b) cause his erstwhile potential buyers -- located inconveniently
on the other side of the continent -- to withdraw from the deal and (c)
potentially leave him to pay the "neutral" shop for the work, if Jack and
his partners turned out to be nefarious cretins.

All of these factors came into play -- most importantly #2. IMHO,
without #2 the seller might well have silently swallowed his worries, and
gone through with the deal.

But who knows? The whole experience can be frustrating, but in this case
it's probably all for the best that the deal fell apart.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

OtisWinslow wrote:
First off, my apoligies to Jack for any perceived offense about my
new buyer remark. Since he has experienced buyers involved as
partners it really doesn't apply to him and is simply based on my
experience.

No sweat Otis, no offense taken. I freely admit that I'm a newbie
airplane buyer and, while I'm learning a ton, it's a first time
experience and I'm bound to miss some things. I'm thankful that our
partnership does have ownership experience though. I'm also grateful
for the advice received in my recent posts. Whether it's ideas like Jim
Burns and working with the FAA database to create leads or experiences
like yours, I learn some things and get some good advice.


Two of my previous sales were with buyers located far away. I simply
never let a plane I'm selling go somewhere else for the prebuy. That
eliminates the fear of the plane being taken apart and being held
hostage to an unscrupulous buyer controlled A/P. What I
do is make arrangements with my home shop to make available space
and any needed equipment (at my expense) in their shop. Then the
prebuy mechanic can come there and do the prebuy. And my
mechanic can deal with fixing anything they want fixed. I haven't had
any objections to this and it's worked well for all concerned.

This is a great idea Otis. A nice compromise between buyer and seller.
Now, if I could just find an Arrow located a short hop away from my
home airport.

Jay - thanks for posting your experience here as your unique position in
this whole adventure does provide a good perspective.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student-Arrow Buying Student

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

In article a6uYd.59212$r55.44222@attbi_s52,
"Jay Honeck" wrote:

In this case, I'd say both parties were "good", but distance and
circumstances conspired against the sale. IMHO, here's why:

2. The seller had a local buyer that was interested in the plane.
4. .... especially in light of #2, above.
All of these factors came into play -- most importantly #2. IMHO, without
#2 the seller might well have silently swallowed his worries, and gone
through with the deal.

fwiw - it really bothers me that there being another potential buyer could have
been a major factor (I'm not saying it was in fact, all we have is Jay's
impression). Maybe it's just me, but if a seller takes a deposit and starts
the sell/buy process with a buyer, then other potential buyers should not
be a consideration.

But who knows? The whole experience can be frustrating, but in this case
it's probably all for the best that the deal fell apart.

Agreed. For me, letting the airplane go somewhere else, especially if I
had a bad experience with the neutral shop, would like stop a deal.

--
Bob Noel
looking for a sig the lawyers will like

fwiw - it really bothers me that there being another potential buyer
could have
been a major factor (I'm not saying it was in fact, all we have is
Jay's
impression). Maybe it's just me, but if a seller takes a deposit and
starts
the sell/buy process with a buyer, then other potential buyers should
not
be a consideration.

You never know what other people are going to do. When my partners and
myself
were looking for a plane (which I still have), we followed up the ads
in the
LA Times one Saturday. The first plane wasn't what we were looking for,
so we continued on. As we were leaving a guy in a Cadillac showed up to
look at it.

The second plane was more like it - much newer, well equipped, and
reasonably
priced - Not that there weren't some maintenance questions to be
answered.
After we'd been there awhile and were discussing making an offer among
ourselves, the Cadillac guy shows up. Within no more than five minutes
and no more than
a few cursory glances over the plane, he's writing a check. Dunno if it
was
a deposit or full price - we walked away at that point.

David Johnson

I have been thinking about selling my pa28-235 for some time, but I dread
the process. I understand why a buyer inexperienced with the model would
want a prebuy inspection, and I respect that. But until I have a check in
my hand, the plane is still mine and I am going to treat it as such. Buyers
need to respect that.

Letting some unknown mechanic disassemble, poke and prod MY plane makes me
sick to my stomach. Every time things are disassembled/reassembled is a
chance for things to get scratched, broken, screws cross-threaded, and so
forth. Every time the plane is put in a mechanic's shop is a chance for
hangar rash. With advance apologies to the many good mechanics out there,
there are also a lot of inept ones and a few that are downright
unscrupulous. I'm not going to give one of them the chance to hold my plane
hostage at their field for a bogus squawk or something they broke.

Now is when several people will jump in with the refrain of "Ooooh, if he
won't let your mechanic do an off-field prebuy inspection, then he must be
hiding something!!! Run!!!" That's fine, please don't let the door hit
you in the *ss on your way out.

Obviously this will limit my pool of buyers, and it will take longer to
sell. The buyer will have to be someone who is experienced with pa28 and
knows what to look for. I'll be happy to remove the inspection panels and
take off the cowl, and he can come LOOK at it in MY hanger. If desired, he
can have a mechanic of his choice come and LOOK at it in my hangar. But
while the plane is still mine, it is not going to the buyer's shop or being
touched by the buyer's mechanic.

Once the plane belongs to the buyer, he can let anyone he wants do anything
he wants with it. Until then, keeping it airworthy and safe from damage is
my (and my mechanic's) job. Look but don't touch, and do it at my hangar.
A potential sale is not worth the risk of turning the plane over to a
mechanic I don't know and/or don't trust.

....Scott

I have been thinking about selling my pa28-235 for some time, but I
dread
the process. I understand why a buyer inexperienced with the model
would
want a prebuy inspection, and I respect that. But until I have a
check in
my hand, the plane is still mine and I am going to treat it as such.
Buyers
need to respect that.

Snip

I'll be happy to remove the inspection panels and
take off the cowl, and he can come LOOK at it in MY hanger. If
desired, he
can have a mechanic of his choice come and LOOK at it in my hangar.
But
while the plane is still mine, it is not going to the buyer's shop or
being
touched by the buyer's mechanic.

It's all a matter of degree. In Jack's case, the plane in question had
NOT complied with Service Bulletin 1006 (or at least I couldn't see it
in the logbooks) -- the "Big One" that addresses wing spar corrosion.
I'm assuming that Jack would have wisely required that this SB be
complied with, and the spar be checked, before or at the pre-buy.

This, of course, means removing the gas tanks -- a MAJOR operation on a
Cherokee -- pulling them forward and inspecting the spar. To comply
with the SB, you have to paint the spar with anti-corrosion goop, and
you might as well replace all the (probably original) fuel lines while
you're at it. None of this is cheap, and there is always the
opportunity to break, scratch or dent something in the process.

Was this the deal killer? Did the seller find someone dumb enough to
buy his plane *without* complying with this service bulletin? Dunno.
It's a major operation, and I wouldn't blame the seller for not wanting
to do it. On the other hand, any Cherokee that has sat outside for any
length of time -- and this one was parked on the ramp for a decade of
Illinois winters -- must comply with that SB, or (IMHO) it is a
completely unsellable aircraft.

So, Jack's search continues. Maybe you should sell him your 235, and
solve *everyone's* problems! :-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I think you're right on, Scott. My feelings exactly.


"Scott" wrote in message
...
But until I have a check in
my hand, the plane is still mine and I am going to treat it as such.
Buyers
need to respect that.

...Scott