Power Commercial to Glider Commercial

It's a lot harder to have fun without any insurance.
The insurers give significantly better rates for commercial
ratings vs. solo or private. And they won't insure pilots
(even those with ASEL commercial, or even ATP) who just
have glider solo for some aircraft.

I do almost all of my work for the insurance companies.
10 hours of dual for this or that to become insurable.
I also get business from pilots who want to really
SSSTTTRRREETTCCCHHH their capabilities, without
reducing safety. Currency stuff and specialized stuff.

Glider cross-country is an example. Instructors like me
get pilots into stretching their legs on cross-countries.
The badge stuff helps, as does talks on the patio.
But the poster asked about getting a commercial rating, not what to
do with it, or whether he could have fun without it, so I
answered that question.

Absolutely it's about fun, though. And there really isn't much fun
in 20 pattern tows. So I'd hope the original poster would
have a bit of fun scratching lift or even soaring at a
great location.

One guy did his very first flight recently, for 3 hours
with a CFIG. He was definitely more hooked by that than
a sled ride

And he got better training too, no argument there...

In article ,
Bob Korves bkorves@winfirstDECIMALcom wrote:
I guess I have been confused all these years. I thought the goal of flying
was to have fun, not to gather ratings... 8^)
-Bob Korves

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:4235d0d8$1@darkstar...
Mitty,

Assuming you have NO glider time as of the date of post,
there are two ways to get PIC time that I know of:

Solo
If you are rated or have privileges

Solo is pretty well defined. The second way is
if you already have a lesser glider rating. One of these
is the Private. As other posters pointed out, there is
almost no reason to get a private instead of a commercial
glider rating if you already have a comm'l ASEL.

Another way to log PIC time is to get a Sport Pilot privilege
in gliders. If you do this, you can then log your instructional
flights as PIC, and you can take passengers as PIC.

If you have access to an LSA glider (such as a 2-33 or
SZD 50-3) then this is an option for you. Also, the process of
flying with two CFIGs before the comm'l glider ride is
quite helpful.

We've done this for a pilot locally who has a Private ASEL
rating. He has enough power hours to get a commercial,
and had just barely soloed. So we did his Sport Pilot glider
privilege add-on and now he can log his further
instructional flights towards the commercial glider rating
which he is pursuing.

In the end, it likely won't matter, and he will have 20 soloes
anyway. The difference is that he will be ready for the ride,
have the experiance complete, and have the form signed earlier,
and during the 2-6 week wait for the checkride he will fly
the other solo flights at his leisure for practice.

Most DPEs won't even schedule a checkride until everything is
signed and ready. So having this a little earlier doesn't
hurt anything.

*****screwy obscure stuff follows************

And there is one other obscure way to log PIC time. You can get
an ATP rating for an experimental glider. If you already have
an ATP, and log 5 hours as PIC between Sept 1, 2004 and Sept 1, 2005
you can have an instructor sign an application and POOF!
you can get an ATP glider rating for a particular make/model
(like an experimental L-13 Blanik). So do all of your training
in an experimental, do a single 5 hour solo/PIC flight, and then
have your CFIG send in the form. You'll be the first glider
ATP in the USA! Log the rest of your flights as PIC (as an ATP)
and these 19 flights will qualify for your commercial glider
aeronautical experience.

***********useless history of PIC follows***********

Before Sept 1, 2004, there were a lot of other ways to log
PIC.

You could log it if you flew an experimental glider with
passengers. Just get a launch endorsement and POOF! go
fly your experimental glider with passengers using your
ASEL ticket under 61.31(k)(2)(iii). That changed under the
new 2005 CFR, which really had a Sept 1, 2004 effective date.

You could log PIC if you were acting as PIC and sole
manipulator of the controls during dual instruction.
Again this was changed in the 2005 version.

These PIC definition changes are being overlooked by
inattentive CFIs, and caught by DPEs. This has happened twice
locally with an ASEL DPE, and the applicant was sent home.

All you CFIs out there, take a look at the changes that
got wormed into the 2005 CFR along with the Sport Pilot rule.
PIC, Recreational pilot, and ATP rules have been changed
along with the addition of SP.


In article ,
Mitty wrote:
I'm looking at adding a commercial glider rating this summer. Never been
in a
glider, but my hunch is that it will be a good learning experience even
though
I'll never fly one for hire.

So ... trying to divine the meaning of Part 61.129(f)2

"20 flights in a glider as PIC" and "5 solo flights"

But ... I can't log PIC time while getting dual instruction since I'm not
rated
in the airplane. So, I'm really looking at 20 solo flights. Right?

(The only way I could see someone having 20 flights as PIC and but only 5
solo
flights would be if the person had a fairly new Private glider rating and
then
took dual for the Commercial. Right?)

TIA


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd




--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

There is a big difference between getting a commercial rating
and enforcing good judgement.

What you say is equally true about a very experienced commercial
glider pilot who has never flown wave or used oxygen in the Sierras.
So what? He's certainly legal to do so, but one expects the pilot
to recognise his personal limitations.

Same for medicals, currency, etc. The public is very well served by
a pilot with a commercial rating (or any rating or privilege, for
that matter) who flies safely, with accurate self-assessment.

In article ,
Nyal Williams wrote:
Mark,

I have had a conversation with just such a transition
pilot who did all his transition flying in the summer.
When the Fall winds came he drifted off downwind and
was shocked at the difficulty in getting back. You
can say poor training; I wouldn't disagree, but I would
also say lack of experience.

Agreed.

I don't think a person
is well served by giving him a commercial rating when
he hasn't flown a full season's weather.

I believe this depends on the location. Beyond that,
getting experience and judgement required to fly safely in
any given weather or location (which may be different from
training) is a pilot responsibility, not an instructor responsibility.
I don't require my students to fly in wave before I sign them
off for a rating. I expect them and teach them to
get dual in wave before flying it, however. The regs
allow this, and I believe this is right. Are you
suggesting a "wave" endorsement, or a "season" endorsement
or regulatory requirement?

I do agree that the person is better served by flying for a whole
season's weather, and knowing the area, and becoming accustomed to
passenger for hire flights locally before giving more
"interesting" flights. And certainly acro training or X-C training
and experience before doing these things for hire. But
this is a call I give to the pilots, who I expect to use good
judgement.

Both he and
the public will expect too much of him. In case of
any sort of mishap, the FAA will be much harder on
him with the commercial than with the private ticket.

Only if he is exercising the commercial privilege.
If he enjoys the insurance being lower, but does no
flying for hire, I wouldn't expect any greater enforcement action
than for a private (at least I'm not aware of this
happening in the past).



At 18:30 14 March 2005, Mark James Boyd wrote:
Nyal,

He already has a commercial ASEL rating. So he doesn't
need
to take another commercial written test anyway. Getting
the extra
10 PIC flights is cheap, and the PTS is almost identical.

There's just no compelling reason to get a Private
instead of
a Commercial glider rating if someone has the aeronautical
experience to do it, in my opinion. No downside (for
gliders
anyway).

In article ,
Nyal Williams wrote:
I don't want to be a killjoy, but I do have a question:
Why, if you have never been in a glider and plan never
to rent one, do you want to start off by planning to
add a commercial rating right off the bat?

I encourage you to get the private pilot glider rating
and get some before adding the glider commercial.
Don't go for bragging rights with absolutely no depth;
you won't impress anyone except those not worthy of
the effort.


At 16:00 13 March 2005, Mitty wrote:
I'm looking at adding a commercial glider rating this
summer. Never been in a
glider, but my hunch is that it will be a good learning
experience even though
I'll never fly one for hire.

So ... trying to divine the meaning of Part 61.129(f)2

'20 flights in a glider as PIC' and '5 solo flights'

But ... I can't log PIC time while getting dual instruction
since I'm not rated
in the airplane. So, I'm really looking at 20 solo
flights. Right?

(The only way I could see someone having 20 flights
as PIC and but only 5 solo
flights would be if the person had a fairly new Private
glider rating and then
took dual for the Commercial. Right?)

TIA






--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd






--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

I've heard of a very experienced glider pilot
made an off-field landing during a local instructional flight
for the very same (wind) reason.

One thing you all seem to have missed is that in the past
5 years of the several dozen fatal glider accidents, not a SINGLE one
was a student pilot. In my opinion, the
recent trainees are the MOST careful, because they have
less complacency.

The glider pilots I know who are recent ratings exercise
quite good and conservative judgement. I would expect the poster
to get his commercial glider rating, and then only use the
commercial privileges quite responsibly.

In article ,
Tony Verhulst wrote:
Nyal Williams wrote:

I have had a conversation with just such a transition
pilot who did all his transition flying in the summer.
When the Fall winds came he drifted off downwind and
was shocked at the difficulty in getting back. You
can say poor training; I wouldn't disagree, but I would
also say lack of experience.

Thank you. Yes, a glider rating in your pocket does not necessarily make
you a glider pilot. I have found that by the time a transitioning pilot
meets the Practical Test Standard, quite often they don't *think* like a
glider pilot yet. Your example is a case in point, IMHO. A few years
ago, here in the north east US, a highly experienced power pilot and
newly minted glider instructor, experienced an off field landing during
a local instructional flight. The cause was attributed to the topic at hand.

Tony V.


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:42366195$1@darkstar...
(snip)
Absolutely it's about fun, though. And there really isn't much fun
in 20 pattern tows. So I'd hope the original poster would
have a bit of fun scratching lift or even soaring at a
great location.

(big snip)

Agreed, Mark,
My point was that soaring is a journey more than a destination. Enjoy the
ride! Rather than trying to get those 20 flights "out of the way", instead
savor them, revel in the new experiences. New ratings are certainly OK, if
one needs or wants them, but they aren't what Orville and Wilbur or DaVinci
or most of us were dreaming about when we got into flying.

I got a new tow pilot endorsement last weekend, on my private license. I
couldn't care less that I will never make money at towing. I get to help
the club, to help my fellow glider pilots get into the air, and, most of
all, get to learn a bunch of new skills. I now have a whole new viewpoint
on soaring that I had missed all these years. A new aircraft model has
shown me a glimpse of her personality, and we are now tentative and aloof
partners. Logbook sign-off? Oh yeah, I guess I need that for the FAA and
the insurance.

I understand that you are a professional pilot and naturally plan to make
some money at flying. That is wonderful. Just don't ever let the trappings
take away the pure joy of flight...
-Bob Korves

Mitty wrote:

I'm looking at adding a commercial glider rating this summer. Never
been in a glider, but my hunch is that it will be a good learning
experience even though I'll never fly one for hire.

So ... trying to divine the meaning of Part 61.129(f)2

"20 flights in a glider as PIC" and "5 solo flights"

But ... I can't log PIC time while getting dual instruction since I'm
not rated in the airplane. So, I'm really looking at 20 solo flights.
Right?

(The only way I could see someone having 20 flights as PIC and but only
5 solo flights would be if the person had a fairly new Private glider
rating and then took dual for the Commercial. Right?)

TIA

The 5 flights can be part of the 20, but those 5 have to involve
practicing 61.127(b)(6). So make sure that you make a notation in your
log book that you had practiced 61.127(b)(6) for at least 5 of those 20
flights.